While I'm all for improved fuel economy, this looks like it will really suck for the enthusiasts, at least until the technology catches up & prices come down. 
While I'm all for improved fuel economy, this looks like it will really suck for the enthusiasts, at least until the technology catches up & prices come down.
Potentially the end of the second muscle car era.
Probably will see lots of turbos and hybrids. Not sure what the SUVs will do.
I honestly don't care that much, my newest car is a 1965...
It wouldn't be too bad for enthusiasts if it saw the return of lighter, more nimble vehicles.
maroon92 wrote: It wouldn't be too bad for enthusiasts if it saw the return of lighter, more nimble vehicles.
Can they somehow get rid of the car exterior and just make the thing one big airbag/safety computer. That should save weight.
That article only tells half of the story though. Before today all the manufacturers were counting on their zero-emission cars (i.e. plug-in electric) to offset their truck and performance cars mileage and emissions as it has been in the past, bur now the current administration changed the rules in the middle of the game and will now make the manufacturers to count the extra emissions generated by the third party power suppliers (i.e. the electric company). Now all those ZEV aren't as beneficial to their line-up as before.
http://www.smartmoney.com/news/ON/?story=ON-20100401-000002&
Not wanting to make this ANOTHER political thread but WTF?!?!?
Our country's manufacturing is already hurting badly and now to throw this wrench in the works will not help our economy recover any faster. Not to mention flashbacks of the early '80's keep replaying in my mind, I mean do we really want to see another line-up full of Citations and 4 cylinder Mustangs?
Feels like 1971 AAAaaaalllll over again.
I don't know a 3000lb mustang with a turbo four that makes 300+ hp, but can do better than 30mpg if you stay out of the boost may not be bad. But, right now the Genesis Coupe in 4 cyl. form weighs 3300, gets 30 mpg hwy, but right now only make 210hp. Of course in 5 years it's possible. Complete redesign of the Mustang of course. The Citation can stay in the past.
Marty! wrote: That article only tells half of the story though. Before today all the manufacturers were counting on their zero-emission cars (i.e. plug-in electric) to offset their truck and performance cars mileage and emissions as it has been in the past, bur now the current administration changed the rules in the middle of the game and will now make the manufacturers to count the extra emissions generated by the third party power suppliers (i.e. the electric company). Now all those ZEV aren't as beneficial to their line-up as before. http://www.smartmoney.com/news/ON/?story=ON-20100401-000002& Not wanting to make this ANOTHER political thread but WTF?!?!? Our country's manufacturing is already hurting badly and now to throw this wrench in the works will not help our economy recover any faster. Not to mention flashbacks of the early '80's keep replaying in my mind, I mean do we really want to see another line-up full of Citations and 4 cylinder Mustangs?
Its very simple, you have someone who knows nothing about business trying to run one (several).
I am quite sure the Bamster looks at businesses like many people do and just assumes that they are some mystical money tree that spontaneously produces wealth and has an unlimited number of branches from which the government can pluck dollars. Does not matter how many times you milk the cow, there will always be more milk tomorrow. Right?
Its this or he is doing it on purpose and i REALLY REALLY don't want to believe that.
Marty! wrote: That article only tells half of the story though. Before today all the manufacturers were counting on their zero-emission cars (i.e. plug-in electric) to offset their truck and performance cars mileage and emissions as it has been in the past, bur now the current administration changed the rules in the middle of the game and will now make the manufacturers to count the extra emissions generated by the third party power suppliers (i.e. the electric company). Now all those ZEV aren't as beneficial to their line-up as before.
it doesn't seem to take into account the electricity by means other than a coal fired or gas fired plant... nuc, wind, water..?? not a whole lot of emissions from those...
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. We should be there shortly. 
In reply to Toyman01:
I'll bootleg the ice water, who is with me?
This Citation deserves to come back. Even with just a four speed, it got pretty decent gas mileage, and would stomp Mustang GT's and Z-28's in F Stock back in the day. It even has a SCCA SSB National Championship under it's belt.
And yes, it's hotlinked.
wbjones wrote:Marty! wrote: That article only tells half of the story though. Before today all the manufacturers were counting on their zero-emission cars (i.e. plug-in electric) to offset their truck and performance cars mileage and emissions as it has been in the past, bur now the current administration changed the rules in the middle of the game and will now make the manufacturers to count the extra emissions generated by the third party power suppliers (i.e. the electric company). Now all those ZEV aren't as beneficial to their line-up as before.it doesn't seem to take into account the electricity by means other than a coal fired or gas fired plant... nuc, wind, water..?? not a whole lot of emissions from those...
True, once they are online. Before that, they're pretty dirty. That being said, I think we should build the heck out of them.
Some small-volume auto companies such as Porsche, Aston Martin and Lamborghini will not have to meet the standards initially, but all automakers will need to comply by 2017.
The end of supercars, musclecars, exotics, etc.. put right there as plain as can be...
unless there is going to be some gas guzzler tax raping work around that they arent talking about...
Looks like we can kiss Lambo and Ferrari goodbye for sure, probably Aston as well. The only kinds of exotics will end up like the Lotus Elise (not too bad), but theres gonna be some trouble making the power that was previously seen as fun.
Also, the death of big bore... Without cylinder deactivation and some other wizardry we might be kissing V8's goodbye.
Apexcarver wrote:Some small-volume auto companies such as Porsche, Aston Martin and Lamborghini will not have to meet the standards initially, but all automakers will need to comply by 2017.The end of supercars, musclecars, exotics, etc.. put right there as plain as can be... unless there is going to be some gas guzzler tax raping work around that they arent talking about... Looks like we can kiss Lambo and Ferrari goodbye for sure, probably Aston as well. The only kinds of exotics will end up like the Lotus Elise (not too bad), but theres gonna be some trouble making the power that was previously seen as fun. Also, the death of big bore... Without cylinder deactivation and some other wizardry we might be kissing V8's goodbye.
I dunno. People have said the same thing for a while... At one point they thought convertibles would be outlawed...And we ended up with the 911 Targa! Yay!
Joey
Perhaps the supercar manufacturers could create a business model where the United States isn't needed for production. Well, they could give us the dregs of their design portfolio, like this Maybach:
The part that gets me about that article is who are these people that get to decide that Chevy's must get 32.7 mpg and Honda's must get 33.8 mpg?
I love it too, that the paragraphs before that talks about the goal of having a single nationwide standard.
maroon92 wrote: It wouldn't be too bad for enthusiasts if it saw the return of lighter, more nimble vehicles.
100% what he said. I anxiously await Ford's answer to the Cruze.
Change happens - roll with it or die by it.
hmm, do I hear vw 1.8tsi motors heading to the states in the near future??? 
Marty! wrote: Not wanting to make this ANOTHER political thread but WTF?!?!? Our country's manufacturing is already hurting badly and now to throw this wrench in the works will not help our economy recover any faster. Not to mention flashbacks of the early '80's keep replaying in my mind, I mean do we really want to see another line-up full of Citations and 4 cylinder Mustangs?
The fact that Detroit is slow to adapt is not a political problem. When Japan was rolling out the Fit, Versa and Yaris, we were rolling out the Aspen, Commander and the new Tahoe.
Adapt and improve--Detroit is capable of this. There is no reason whatsoever that Detroit can't build a great fuel-efficient car.
It's all about the buying and selling of "credits".
In reply to gamby:
And what were people buying from Detroit?
The local Chevy dealer has a front row of nothing but SUV's and Full Size Crew Cabs, cause guess what people are buying right now (like 2 years ago didn't happen)?
I am talking about all automakers that manufacture in the states, not just US ones. In the article I linked it states:
"But electric vehicles will no longer be counted as zero-emissions, as a draft of the rules released in September indicated they would."
"Gloria Bergquist of the Alliance for Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing all major auto makers but Honda Motor Co. (HMC, 7267.TO), said the industry needs as large a government credit as possible for plug-ins to defray the costs of the technology."
And this from the Autoblog article: "If the Feds are right, automakers will spend $51.5 billion over the next five years putting the standards into effect and the average price of a new car will rise by $985 by 2016."
The new numbers aren't unachievable, but they will require more effort ($$$$) from the makers. While everybody knew that stricter standards were coming the gubmint should have stuck to the same formula or given the automakers a larger lead time.
Time for some 6 speed manual transmissions, turbochargers and diesels, me thinks. The last time I was in Germany my rental car was an Alfa Romeo sport wagon that I would bring home in a heartbeat. I averaged 40 mpg for the week and I was running at 120 mph every chance I got. The only drawback was shifting at 4200 RPM or less, it took a little getting used to.
gamby wrote: The fact that Detroit is slow to adapt is not a political problem. When Japan was rolling out the Fit, Versa and Yaris, they also pulled the bait and switch and came out with the Titan, Tundra, and other luxo barges that got terrible mileage..
FYP.
If this really was a stunner for anyone, it's far from surprising for me. And was fully expected. We know this was coming, just like we know LEVIII and Tier 3 are coming.
This won't mean the end of cars, just a different solution. As for exotics, yea, they are SOOO rare in Europe, where gas is up to $9/gal....
As for the different averages- that's so that GM and Ford don't get nicked for selling a FULL range of vehicles, including Frame Off trucks, partial work vans, and other medium and heavy duty vehicles. Ones that nobody else makes. If Honda wants a slightly lower target, they are welcome to make vans and trucks that are capable of towing +20,000lb. To me, it make the exectations a lot more realistic.
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