I don't understand...

..."hybrid hate."

I'm not really talking about anyone on here specifically, there just seems to be this general opinion among car people who have opinions about things that hybrids are the spawn of the devil's most boring accountant. Yes, Jeremy Clarkson makes fun of them a lot, occasionally with automatic rifles, and sometimes they legitimately are bought by self-righteous twerps, but that isn't the fault of the technology itself.

I think hybrids, which have really only been around for the last ten years or so, are a pretty cool idea, even if they do need more development. I also think that in, say, 20 years or so, some sort of electric assist so that the IC engine never has to operate outside its peak efficiency range, will be standard, just like fuel injection is today. That's not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of different configurations possible other than the presently-common battery & motor boosting a fuel engine which is connected to a conventional transmission. I suspect with some more development we'll have a better handle on which configurations work well and which ones don't...

And let's not forget that hybrids have been essentially the only cars designed recently with any attempt to be made lighter (other than Lotus or other "hard core" sports cars.) Even if you're not a fan of the current Prius or spate of "green" hybrid SUVs (I'm not), there has been at least one legitimately cool, fun-to-drive, no frills runabout hybrid made already. Isn't that what practically everyone on this board keeps clamoring for? Who says there won't be more?

So, hating on hybrids... I don't get it.

I don't understand the hype either. Okay, that is a lie, I completely understand it. The critics dislike hybrids because they do not fit a specific mold of a car that really isn't feasible in today's market. It is unfortunate, but really lightweight, low power, low frills cars are not what most consumers want in the Western markets. I don't think manufacturers want these low-cost, low-profit cars either, so they're not going to push the issue. Compared to modern cars of the same weight, size, and class, hybrids are able to consume less fuel, while also providing safety and acceleration that the economy cars of years past can only dream of. Yes, Colin Chapman is turning in his grave, but Loti weren't the most successful in the mass-market.

My only dislike of hybrids is due to their complexity. That dislike also carries over to most new cars. I was thrilled to find a Camaro with manual locks and windows for my daughter. I keep cars forever and the electrical crap always dies first. I can't imagine repairs on a 200K hybrid. Batteries alone would be more than the value of the car. I therefore have no interest in them.

I want to know why there isn't a Turbo-Diesel-Electric Hybrid

I don't they are the end result. In that, I think they are simply a stop gap measure. They really don't get that good of fuel mileage either compared to what you can do with less weight and even a turbo diesel.

i don't hate on them, but then I'm not rushing out to buy one either. I don't believe the dino alternative has been perfected yet, or maybe not even "invented" yet. Until then, i'll stay with getting something like a MINI or TDI if I need better fuel economy. Or if some of the European companies would bring in their other TD products here. It's just a complexity I don't believe you need.

Where I can see a benefit is maybe like they use in F1, where you'd add it to a performance car to give it a boost. In that sort of application where costs and complexities go hand in hand, I can maybe see a future in it. Right now it's just an additive to make the green boys and girls feel better about what they drive. I would put money on increased sales of the CR-Z if they dropped a gas motor with a VTEC in it instead.

I pay more taxes so someone can incorrectly feel good about saving the environment and then lord their supposed intellectual superiority over me.

reminds me of:

Replace atheists with hybrid haters and fundies with greenies who drive them for the image.

There are other methods of decreasing fuel consumption that we could consider....didn't VW build a diesel polo that shut off the engine at lights instead of idling? (Of course, that system is also prone to electrical gremlins.)

Hybrids are a PC solution, not THE solution. The fact that so much is made over a savings that doesn't even bring us back to the mpg of yesteryear and the then the environmental impact and cost of all those batteries just make me think hybrid early adopters are stupid.

But with that said, I do buy into the concept that something can be done that will make sense one day.

I think 1 of the reasons why folks have a dislike for hybrids is because the reason folks SEEM to buy them is so they can scream "look at me, I'm saving the environment" without actually having to say a thing. To me, they (hybrid vehicles) come off as an "empty gesture".

Example? My sister traded her Mustang for a Prius a few years ago. On the surface, that made sense, EXCEPT ...if she really wanted to save the planet, she would insist her hubby trade in his Mercedes for something a bit more planet friendly. She/they bought the Prius to save money at the pump, but paid cash for a car that in operating costs Edmunds.com said was actually MORE expensive per mile than a "regular" Corolla or a Civic.

I do like the idea of PERFORMANCE hybrids, like the new Infinitis, since they give more power without going to an outlandishly large gas engine, but I do wish Nissan/Infiniti and others would use this concept/idea on cars with smaller engines like, say, the Quest minivan.

JoeyM wrote: ...didn't VW build ..(...electrical gremlins.)

It works, just VW has it's own issues with Ohms Laws.

The best "alernative" for fuel reduction is conservation. Commuters need to carpool while driving slower with higher mpg vehicles.

Personally I would like to see CNG make a big push as it is plentiful in the Americas. Follow that with 7 speed diesel technology and reducing mass. A recycled alloy structure using lightweight bolt on molded panels without all of the heavy audiophile quality sound systems and 47 airbags. Build the car to crash well with wheel and side curtain bags and be done with it. Give me a 150hp TD with idle stop and an electric start assist drive motor rowing a true seven speed DSG under the hood.

i think most people don't hate it for any particular engineering reason.

they hate it for the political window-dressing it represents; the social well-being elitism it attracts, or the 'appliance buying non-enthusiast' that respond to its presence.

madmallard wrote: i think most people don't hate it for any particular engineering reason. they hate it for the political window-dressing it represents; the social well-being elitism it attracts, or the 'appliance buying non-enthusiast' that respond to its presence.

+13

The only reason I would buy a hybrid would be to cut 1hr off my daily commute via the HOV lane...

madmallard wrote: i think most people don't hate it for any particular engineering reason. they hate it for the political window-dressing it represents; the social well-being elitism it attracts, or the 'appliance buying non-enthusiast' that respond to its presence.

Maybe people don't like the prius because it looks like a giant suppository.

paul wrote: The only reason I would buy a hybrid would be to cut 1hr off my daily commute via the HOV lane...

^^ The reason 50% of Priuses in the D.C. area were bought acording to a survey by WJLA-TV.

I don't hate the technology, but I think it's being absolutely squandered. An electrical engine could give a lot of oomph down low, allowing for an ICE that's really designed for higher-rpm operation (i.e. cammed-to-berkeley), which would make for a best-of-both worlds scenario.

But NO ONE makes a performance Hybrid. The CRZ is a step in the right direction, but it's only a step. And like a lizard trying to evolve into a bird, a tenth-of-the-way-there wing does NOT allow you to fly; the CRZ not selling is seen as a market indicator that performance hybrids won't sell when it actually just means that half-ass performance hybrids won't sell.

That, and it follows the despicable trend to make cars more complex "just because they can".

racerdave600 wrote: I don't they are the end result. In that, I think they are simply a stop gap measure. They really don't get that good of fuel mileage either compared to what you can do with less weight and even a turbo diesel. i don't hate on them, but then I'm not rushing out to buy one either. I don't believe the dino alternative has been perfected yet, or maybe not even "invented" yet.

This and the fact that my brand new 2011 Hyundai Elantra gets 40mpg highway and only cost $16500 with (shudder) a gas engine, a full $6500 less than a Prius

Edit: Elantra 2660lbs vs Prius 3040lbs

Elantra 148hp vs Prius combined net 134hp

Elantra is nice to look at as well

paul wrote: The only reason I would buy a hybrid would be to cut 1hr off my daily commute via the HOV lane...

Buy a mannequin for the passenger seat... save big.

paul wrote: The only reason I would buy a hybrid would be to cut 1hr off my daily commute via the HOV lane...

You have no idea how overjoyed I was the day that single-passenger Prii lost HOV rights here in California.

integraguy wrote: I think 1 of the reasons why folks have a dislike for hybrids is because the reason folks SEEM to buy them is so they can scream "look at me, I'm saving the environment" without actually having to say a thing. To me, they (hybrid vehicles) come off as an "empty gesture".

But is that any different than driving a jeep an letting it scream "look at me! I hunt zombies!" or a Miata with gumballs on the side the screams "look at me! I autocross!" or an escort wagon that screams "look at me! I shop ikea!".

For the record, I've had, or have, all three.

Joey

madmallard wrote: i think most people don't hate it for any particular engineering reason. they hate it for the political window-dressing it represents; the social well-being elitism it attracts, or the 'appliance buying non-enthusiast' that respond to its presence.

It always bothers me that fuel efficiency is turned into a political issue. Gas is going to be $5/gal in the next couple of months and people are still trying to beat down hybrids. Think for a second, people.

Oddly enough, I saw a Prius with Tea Party stickers on it last week. That was pretty strange.

As for the shut-off at a stop, a bunch of cars are doing that these days.

I get annoyed when almost every single hybrid I see has one person in it. I like it for the technology that it has and the technology that they are moving forward. I don't like them for most of the people that I've met that drive them (that I know drive them, if I know it, that means they are annoying).

gamby wrote: Gas is going to be $5/gal in the next couple of months and people are still trying to beat down hybrids. Think for a second, people.

Think about what? I don't understand how the price of gas has anything to do with the validity of hybrids. To make this is to infer that the increasing gas prices causes people to desire more fuel-efficient vehicles and that hybrids, just by their very nature of being a hybrid, are more fuel-efficient than non-hybrids.

I can logically follow the first premise (though from the continued desire for SUVs/cross-overs, I don't know that new car sales back it up yet), I can't the second.

I'm saying that any fuel efficient car is a good thing these days--regardless of how it does it. I say--bring on the clean diesels that we were promised during the last fuel crunch.

...and aside from the TDI, there aren't many non-hybrids that are more efficient than a Prius--Stateside, that is.

I can say that it's pretty awesome that there are so many 40mpg cars available now vs. last fuel crunch. The manufacturers actually thought ahead and it'll pay off in spades. Wait 'til you see how many Fiat 500's sell when gas is at a record high.