I like the 02-05 civic si, do thieves?

You can get a C4 LT1 Corvette for similar money... why bother with the four-cylinder stuff?

chaparral wrote: You can get a C4 LT1 Corvette for similar money... why bother with the four-cylinder stuff?

Because there IS a replacement for displacement once you move away from straight line racing... Don't dismiss 4-cylinders.

That said, i can think of at least 50 cars i'd rather have for the money, and a C4 vette is certainly one of them.

Alot of the people looking into that gen SI, usually stop because of the above stated problems, as well as the weird placement of the stick shift.

The 99-01 and 06+ seem to be stolen more often now but for different reasons. The 99-01 came with a B16 engine that will swap into any honda as well as the parts fitting in 96-01 cars. Thus why people want to steal them and they are very easy to steal, pop the hood via the cable under the front drivers side fender, and kill the alarm, then use a coat hanger to open the door, remove the cyclinder and start the car with a screwdriver, takes 15-20 minutes.

The 06+ cars have a more robust alarm that is more integrated into the key cylinder, it has a chip that the alram and computer check it against before it allows you to start the car. There are ways around that, mostly wiring issues, but it'll take 25-45 minutes, depending on the skill of the thief to get through it.

The EP3 on the other hand is easy to steal, much like the 99-01 cars, but nobody wants them, the parts are only good on that car really, other then the engine.

Andrew

The big drawback for me is almost every one I have seen has a sun/moon roof. Big no no for me!

First off the gearing in the Celica GTS is too tall.

The gearing is just right on the EP3 Si...real short.

EP3s are not stolen frequently. Unforunately they are un-loved by the masses. Fortunately that means they are usually cheap!

The "problem" some people have is that the redline is low compared to the old B16 Si and the RSX-S and current Si. The EP3 K20A3 redlines at 6800 rpm. Note that from idle to 6800 rpm it pulls just as hard as an RSX-S K20. I know I had an '04. Therefore the EP3 Si is still quick enough on the street that you can get into trouble if you hoon around too much. Note that the base model RSX-S has the same engine as the EPS except for the replacement of the EP3s aluminum intake manifold with a plastic 2 stage runner unit. With the 2 stage manifold the base RSX made about 10ft*lbs more torque than the EP3.

Some people complain that EP3's need a 6th gear as 75 in fifth means you are turning almost 4000 rpm. I am OK with that because 6th gear in the RSX-S wasn't much more of an overdrive and the 5 speed has none of the "second gear crunch" issues of the RSX-S.

As for the suspension... Stock, the rear of the EP3 is better damped than the '02-'04 RSX-S. As mentioned above the Civic / EP3 / RSX(-S) suspension layout of that generation leaves much to be desired. These cars do not like to be lowered more than 1" without the proper ball joints to correct the tie rod angle. The '02-'04 EP3s came with 195s on 15" rims. The '05-'06 cars came with 205s on 16" rims and a bigger rear anti-roll bar. These cars also had 5 lug hubs and side body cladding. They weighed more though. The rare dealer installed HFP package included 17" wheels, different strut/shock/springs and a body kit with more cladding and a bigger roof spoiler.

I added an '05-'06 RSX-S 21mm rear sway bar to my '02 EP3 Si. In the winter I run 185-65 15 snows on the stock rims. For the other 3 months I have 205-50 15 Toyo T1-Rs on flat black Flik Blasts (Spoon knock-offs). This set-up transforms the car. Way better grip...and shorter gearing too! I run AXXIS Ultimae pads all around. Big improvement over the stock pads. Lots of brake dust...but that is why I bought flat black wheels. The car is good around the cones but will not be an STS champ.

The interior and ergonomics are fantastic. The steering wheel is perfect. The close-coupled shifter is a joy to use (odd looking but a joy to use). The HVAC controls are in the perfect spot. The seats are fantastic...whereas as the similar looking leather buckets in the '02-'04 RSX-Ss killed my back. They changed the lower cusion on the '05+ RSX-S..something was up. The cloth seats in the base RSX are essentially those in the EP3 with out the alcantara, grippy center cloth, and snazzy red stitching. The radio/single CD player in the EP3 is passable (it's OK for MegadetH ).

Overall the EP3 is a fantastic daily driver. With the hatch you can haul tons of stuff (I have... bikes, guitar amps, hay bales...). It is quick enough to get you into trouble and handles well with good meats. It is also anvil reliable. Revving an RSX-S an extra 2200 rpm to get 40 more hp can be fun. It also gets boomy and draws a lot of attention on the street. on the other hand EP3 is a stealth machine. I am very happy with my Evil Egg.

My '88 RX-7 is now what I use for making noise

In reply to racer_ace:

I thought this thread was dead and that everyone hated the EP3. Well looks like I'm wrong. Thanks for all the good information about the car. I watched the Top Gear episode about the Type-R version awhile ago. I really like the way you described the car decibel wise. I think vtec is great and all, but after really being old enough to drive and actually have REAL daily driving duties, being stealth takes a lot of pressure off of you when you are trying to enjoy the commute. I don't care what everyone else thinks, but when vtec switches to full anger mode, it is actually really obnoxious. I live in Northern California, I hope I didn't mention that already, and the police know the popular tuner cars. They also will harass you about it if they have any reason to find you suspicious, hitting vtec is one of them. So stealth is nice. My understanding is that the gearing is pretty low. Which is a big one for me. I recently test drove the 09 wrx and was pretty disappointed with the really tall 1st and 2nd gears. Most cars seem to have gearing towards the 0-60 is king so the gearing is too tall to enjoy on the street. My old EF Si ran right up near 4000 rpms at 75-80ish in fifth gear. It was great, the motor was really close to its powerband that you could step on the gas to pass people or feel you had the power there without downshifting. I'm actually finding myself more attracted to the EP3. If I did get one I wouldn't be too concerned with lowering it and if I did I would prefer to use the type r springs. Correct me if I'm wrong but as I learn more about cars, I'm pretty new to the scene, it seems that the manufacturers are generally smarter than the aftermarket. Honda chose those spring rates for a reason right? Why venture too far away if I'm using the car as a fun/quick DD and I'm not using race rubber? After reading some articles on this website I'm not really sure I understand the need for lowering and springs. Isn't the shock and tire combo the key to sheer grip? Also bars truly change the handling characteristics. Maybe I'm stealing my own thread but I'm just saying, most people complain you can't slam the car. I don't understand the dire need to lower a car other than cosmetic reasons, especially if the car is a DD. I know springs affect response but seriously, if the only thing that sucks about the suspension is tie rods getting funky because I'm rocking a 3 inch drop, I'm not that concerned. I don't know, the EP3 is kinda cool. It's like the anti-Honda car in the Honda family.

92dxman wrote: The big drawback for me is almost every one I have seen has a sun/moon roof. Big no no for me!

Plug it and save 32 lbs.

The Si is set at 6800 rpm but is very dependable up to 7800 or so.

Instead of R coilovers, you can use A-Specs, which are Acura's version of Honda's HFPs. HFP coilovers are no longer available. HFPs have around a .8" drop and A-Specs are around 1". Very well tuned fixed coilovers shipped for $650. Mugens are twice the price and drop 1.4'

A WRX will smoke my EP3, but with the short gearing the EP3 does feel high strung through 1st.

You are correct, with 5th being so short there is no need to downshift to pass on the highway as long as you are already doing above 65 mph.

One thing I forgot to mention. The EP3 / RSX(-S) / all Civics of this generation will wheel hop real bad if you get on it to hard from a stop in 1st or from a roll in 1st (and sometimes 2nd) on wet pavement or sandy pavement (sometimes). Do not try to dump the clutch at high revs either on dry pavement. You have to slip the clutch a hair if you are trying to make a really quick start at an Auto-X without wheel hop. There are motor mounts and engine dampers out their that help reduce the wheel hop. However they can result in a car that shakes noticeably when the A/C compressor kicks in. Not fun for a daily drive in CA I suppose. I have the stock engine mounts and choose not to abuse it off the line.

In reply to racer_ace:

Yeah, first is worthless. Since I'm lighter than stock, starting up in 2nd is the norm for street. I'm going from the 4.764 final to the 4.389 and a sixth "overdrive" for highway. I'm guessing at least 45 mpg combined since 38 - 42 is doable now.

Not sure but I think TalonXRacer on EPHatch.com has fixed the wheel hop/vibration. I don't have the problem either as I don't dump it off the line.

what's fuel efficiency of the EP3 vs the Celica?

My head hits the surround on the damn sunroofs in celicas...

PHeller wrote: what's fuel efficiency of the EP3 vs the Celica?

EP3 is right around 32mpg hwy. Isn't the Celica right around that as well???

racer_ace wrote: First off the gearing in the Celica GTS is too tall. The gearing is just right on the EP3 Si...real short.

You ever driven a 2000-2005 Celica GTS? I don't think i can think of a tighter geared transmission. It's shorter than the EP3 by a a decent margin. Both cars top out 2nd gear within 5mph of each other, and the GTS is revving 1500rpms higher.

Can't be THAT long, it's a good second faster through the quarter mile if you care about that sort of thing. And that's with only 20 more hp.

gamby wrote:

PHeller wrote: what's fuel efficiency of the EP3 vs the Celica?

EP3 is right around 32mpg hwy. Isn't the Celica right around that as well???

It's pretty close. I think combined they're within 1-2mpg of each other, depending on your foot.

I dunno... it's not that i hate the EP3, trust me. I just think they're overpriced compared to what else you can get for the same money.

I can't think of a single downside of the Celica GTS or even RSX-S for that price when compared to the EP3. (I'm taking out styling, because that's subjective)

From a performance and utility perspective, the EP3 has nothing to offer more than the alternatives, and quite a bit less in most cases. Anyone who is considering a recent-ish FWD 4-banger hatch OWES it to themselves to drive an RSX-S and a Celica GT-S. They're entirely different cars, but both GREAT in their own right. The EP3 is entirely average in every sense of the word. In my opinion, of course.

In reply to 93celicaGT2:

I drove a Celica GT-S in the summer of '04 when I was looking for the '04 RSX-S that I had. Who knows maybe the GT-S I drove was actually an '05 model. In any event I wasn't too thrilled because the car would not stay "on the cam" going into second and thrid (I did not ring it out in the other gears...no put me in jail speeds on the test drive). In any event the K20 / 6-speed combo in the RSX-S felt better than the powertrain in the GT-S. I had a couple of other gripes with the GT-S. One was the poor over the shoulder and rear visibility. The other (and this is entirely a personal opinion thing) was that I thought the interior was way low rent compared to the RSX-S and the exterior styling was a little to "pull me over".

I will give you this. Stock vs. stock a Celica GT-S will out handle and stop an RSX-S. If I recall the GT-S weighs 200lbs less than an RSX / EP3 Si.

As far as prices go EP3s are dirt cheap. Hell they couldn't sell them when new. They were letting them go off the lots for $16K (sticker was $19,995) at the end of their run. The OP wants something that is a practical yet fun daily driver that uses low octane fuel and is stealthy. EP3 fits the bill.

racer_ace wrote: In reply to 93celicaGT2: I drove a Celica GT-S in the summer of '04 when I was looking for the '04 RSX-S that I had. Who knows maybe the GT-S I drove was actually an '05 model. In any event I wasn't too thrilled because the car would not stay "on the cam" going into second and thrid (I did not ring it out in the other gears...no put me in jail speeds on the test drive). In any event the K20 / 6-speed combo in the RSX-S felt better than the powertrain in the GT-S. I had a couple of other gripes with the GT-S. One was the poor over the shoulder and rear visibility. The other (and this is entirely a personal opinion thing) was that I thought the interior was way low rent compared to the RSX-S and the exterior styling was a little to "pull me over". I will give you this. Stock vs. stock a Celica GT-S will out handle and stop an RSX-S. If I recall the GT-S weighs 200lbs less than an RSX / EP3 Si. As far as prices go EP3s are dirt cheap. Hell they couldn't sell them when new. They were letting them go off the lots for $16K (sticker was $19,995) at the end of their run. The OP wants something that is a practical yet fun daily driver that uses low octane fuel and is stealthy. EP3 fits the bill.

If it was an 05 model you wouldn't have had the problem staying on the cam. 2000, 2001, and 2005 had a more agressive ECU. The other years dropped out really hard. Easy fix though, swap ECUs.

The GT-S weighs a bit more than 200lbs less than the RSX/EP3. It weighs 2500lbs. It's a pretty light car. We're talking more like a 400-500lb difference.

How much are EP3s going for these days? Last i checked, they were equal or more than the GTSs, which i've been seeing pop up for $6k lately.

But yes. I agree, the EP3 fits the bill. I just feel that there's better options for me personally. No worries.

And maybe i'm a ricer, some people will say that this sounds like crap, but i think it's glorious.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Celica-GTS-with-Kazuma_41571.htm

Aftermarket is starting to pick up for this motor, too. An intake manifold was recently released that is giving around 20whp gains dyno proven. People are making over 200whp without opening the motor.

In reply to 93celicaGT2:

Now that we have hijacked this thread...

WOW! That GT-S sounded wicked.

EP3s weigh 2760 lbs. It looks like the prices range from 5,500 - 8,500 depending on the year, mileage, etc. in CT.

Later,

Ray

racer_ace wrote: In reply to 93celicaGT2: Now that we have hijacked this thread... WOW! That GT-S sounded wicked. EP3s weigh 2760 lbs. It looks like the prices range from 5,500 - 8,500 depending on the year, mileage, etc. in CT. Later, Ray

Yeah... i think the main thing that kills the Celica against that is probably the styling, and the "Chick Car" stigma. Ah well. The more people buy the EP3s, the more likely i'll have a GTS in the next year or so.

That particular GTS cracked 13s with intake, header, TRD exhaust, and a PFC.

im new to this sight,and a little disapointed about the flack the ep3 has been recieving and not just because im an owner of an 02.sure, every car has some faults and it certainly falls short of its better half the type-r.which is what the ep3 should have been,in the right hands the ep3 has alot of potential,they are rare unique and often overlooked and the wealth of after market parts make it an apealing choice for a project car,specif.jdm w/a k20a2t-s k20at-r engine and some susp.mods i bet a lot of u would change ur tunes,and would certainly blow that celica out of the water.the new hatches were bunked by every one at first and now its common place for kseries swaps in bseries cars theres always kinks to iron out when news things come out,because the love for the b series was,to say the least deep.the k20a3 motor is a bit of a dissap.but still gets the job done and has great fuel ecom.while doing so save ur pennies for an easy swap which is anouther + for this car and uve got urself a unique non run o the mill beast.any replies, gripes welcome.02 ep3 aemv2,greedy exh, dc headers,sckunk2 coilovers,brembro.k20a3 making 180hp,tq140 all motor.soon to be swaping k20a. see see u in the streets or dust mr.celica.

Well as far as having struts up front, yea the car is a bit rough around the edges to tune and the k20a3 feels like crap at the track, but I have to say for some reason if you carefully mod the suspension, I mean not even top dollar stuff but just pick and chose the right things the car will respond really well. But lets face it the limiting factor in the car is the motor. I finally feel that as a driver of a EP3 that I have been developing and driving for turning it into an IT car, that i am a faster driver then people in quicker cars but the motor just sucks ass trying to pass on the track.

Mod it like you would a Mac strut car: dont over lower, add caster w/ offset or reversed camber plates, touch of reverse rake, watch your lower control arm angles, get good shocks, test some spring rates etc etc. Honestly I was at NJMP last weekend with SJR SCCA for a 2 day advanced PDX and I've never had so many people coming up to me saying damn this thing is fast and I have a intake, header and exhaust. Its for sure not fast becasue I get raped and pillaged on the fast bits, but propper modding, like with any car it will help. Of course I'm biased, I love the car.

For daily driver, if you ever carry 4 people, or 3, good luck w/ the RSX. My roommate is 6'11" and we had to open the hatch to get that tall bastard in an rsx. In the EP3 when it was a street car, he was in there no problem. Not to mention the kegs, cases, and other fun stuff the Hatch could fit.

It should be noted that the Hondata ECU reflash has dropped in price from $590 to $290 and provides a nice added poke to the K20A3.

When I was racing my base RSX I never had any issues harassing the Type-S's and frequently beating them.

hatchback77 wrote: im new to this sight,and a little disapointed about the flack the ep3 has been recieving and not just because im an owner of an 02.sure, every car has some faults and it certainly falls short of its better half the type-r.which is what the ep3 should have been,in the right hands the ep3 has alot of potential,they are rare unique and often overlooked and the wealth of after market parts make it an apealing choice for a project car,specif.jdm w/a k20a2t-s k20at-r engine and some susp.mods i bet a lot of u would change ur tunes,and would certainly blow that celica out of the water.the new hatches were bunked by every one at first and now its common place for kseries swaps in bseries cars theres always kinks to iron out when news things come out,because the love for the b series was,to say the least deep.the k20a3 motor is a bit of a dissap.but still gets the job done and has great fuel ecom.while doing so save ur pennies for an easy swap which is anouther + for this car and uve got urself a unique non run o the mill beast.any replies, gripes welcome.02 ep3 aemv2,greedy exh, dc headers,sckunk2 coilovers,brembro.k20a3 making 180hp,tq140 all motor.soon to be swaping k20a. see see u in the streets or dust mr.celica.

Wut.

Hi all, NASA member and GRM subscriber here. Someone brought this thread up on an EP3 site and it doesn't look too old so I thought I'd chime in.

I'll start by saying that I've regularly driven 4 cars in my entire life: '89 Honda Accord Lx-i for ~1 1/2 years, '94 Volvo 850 for ~ 2 weeks, '83 RX-7 for ~3 weeks, and my current car, an '05 EP3, for ~ 3 years. Obviously I don't have a vast amount of experience but I thought I would give my thoughts anyway.

I regularly autocross the EP, and it's not half bad for a beginner car. It's fun, and that's about all I care about. Sure, the engine is...weak. That's already been discussed. Also, the understeer is horrible at the limit (but I've been autocrossing on rocks instead of tires so that might have something to do with it). Also, this car drives extremely safe. It's difficult to get yourself into a situation, but if you do, simply letting off the gas and pointing the wheel will get you out so long as you're not a complete moron. But these really don't matter when you're looking for a car to DD.

This thing is amazing in everyday situations. It is ergonomically perfect. The seats are great (unlabled Recaros I think) and the A/C, radio, and other controls are perfect. The dash has 3 knobs, 4 buttons, and a radio head unit and that's all you'll ever need to use. The back seats are plenty large for two adults; there is just as much space back there if not more than up front. It's got enough umph to be fun when you need it to be, it's extremely practical, and the cops ignore it I'm pretty hard on it, and I'll get ~31 mpg on the highway and ~29 with mixed driving. They are stolen occasionally, but not terribly often going by the posts over at ephatch.com. There is a far greater prevalence of bad driving/luck and totaled cars than stolen ones. The few that are stolen are usually recovered sans radio and expensive aftermarket wheels.

As far as reliability goes, I did have to have the water pump replaced (under warranty if I recall) when I got it at 2 years old and 24,000 miles. Other than that, it has been rock solid. Not a single issue 3 years and 46,000 miles later.

The tl;dr: Perfect car for daily driving and/or the beginning enthusiast so long as you don't need something bigger, but not something that would be fun for the experienced driver.

Of course, take it with a grain of salt. I'm 21 and haven't driven much else, but have heard many a complaint from friends who drive all kinds of other sporty cars on a day-to-day basis.

I was under the impression that the EP3 was supposed to use premium fuel (91 or 93)

Have I been wrong this whole time?

The K20A3 runs just fine on 87 octane. With the ECU reflash you have to run 89.

93celicaGT2 wrote: The GT-S weighs a bit more than 200lbs less than the RSX/EP3. It weighs 2500lbs. It's a pretty light car. We're talking more like a 400-500lb difference.

Now you're just being silly. 2002 EP3 2,740 lb 2002 GTS 2,425 lb

Unless I'm really bad at math that's not a 400-500lb difference.

And to answer the original question about thievery EP3's don't get stolen much because they have the more advanced security of the microchip keys and ignition. Plus they're generally unloved.