I must be missing something. BMW?

I'm not trying to start a firestorm, but on another thread about BMWs a post stated the "common" repairs he had to make from 100K to 165K. It looked like a long and expensive list. Broken spring? Rebuild cooling system? Overhaul the suspension? Left on the side of the road twice? It looked like a lot longer and more expensive than what I have spent on my 97 Ford since I've owned it (55K to 140K), and the Ford has never left me. They don't seem to be any better built than the Domestic stuff that can be had cheaper. Not to mention fixed cheaper.

A little insight would be appreciated. I had been thinking about a used BMW or Volvo Wagon for the wife to replace her van, but y'all are about to talk me out of the BMW. I don't want to work on her car, just mine. It might be time to start looking at Chevy and Ford again.

So, tell me why a BMW is one of the "answers".

You can get a smallish car with RWD and a manual transmission and its not a fox body mustang?

RossD wrote: You can get a smallish car with RWD and a manual transmission and its not a fox body mustang?

Miata

The answer is always Miata.

My Ti is at 140,000 right now.. I did replace the waterpump, thermostat, and all hoses and belts when I got the car when it had 90,000 on it.

It did need a whole suspension rebuild due to blow struts (badly blown struts) and bushings that literally fell apart in your hands (never expected that on a car with 90,000 miles) but other than that.. the car has NEVER left me stranded. Even when the fuel pump went, I managed to get the car to run that last 2 miles to get me home.

and honestly, that is the end of my repairs to the car. Even some of them were upgrades too.

I'll quote this recent post from another board I'm on:

I have 100% of the work on my '99 3 Series done by one indy shop that does top-notch work. I take top-notch care of the car... if something is broken, it gets fixed properly with OEM parts. If something is worn and might break in the future, it gets replaced with OEM parts. No expense spared.

Only once did the car leave me stranded. Otherwise it's been maintenance mostly, one door lock regulator, two window motors, just a few minor problems.

All of the DIY mechanics here will say "he paid someone else--that's the problem". Whatever--I suck as a mechanic and that experience cements why I won't touch a BMW. I haven't had those expenses in 300k miles of Honda ownership.

Sure, it's worst-case-scenario, but it's far from uncommon. There are plenty of BMW fans who will say they've had no problems. I know I'd get the one that's chock full o' gremlins and I don't have the patience for that.

Next, I'll be hearing that an early 2000's S4 is a great ownership experience.

gamby wrote: I'll quote this recent post from another board I'm on: I have 100% of the work on my '99 3 Series done by one indy shop that does top-notch work. I take top-notch care of the car... if something is broken, it gets fixed properly with OEM parts. If something is worn and might break in the future, it gets replaced with OEM parts. No expense spared. The car currently has just shy of 86k miles on it. In the past 3 years I've driven it just over 30,000 miles. In the past 3 years I've spend just over $12,000 with my indy mechanic. That cost is exclusive of tires, gas, insurance, and many parts that needed replacement which I bought from third parties. I spent money on mods that weren't needed, but some things (like the shocks) needed to be replaced and I bought aftermarket parts. Only once did the car leave me stranded. Otherwise it's been maintenance mostly, one door lock regulator, two window motors, just a few minor problems. All of the DIY mechanics here will say "he paid someone else--that's the problem". Whatever--I suck as a mechanic and that experience cements why I won't touch a BMW. I haven't had those expenses in 300k miles of Honda ownership. Sure, it's worst-case-scenario, but it's far from uncommon. There are plenty of BMW fans who will say they've had no problems. I know I'd get the one that's chock full o' gremlins and I don't have the patience for that. Next, I'll be hearing that an early 2000's S4 is a great ownership experience.

Wow.. my 96 ti... I do not think I have done more than 4 grand worth of work to in all the time I had it... so about a grand a year basically

Yeah, that was my list . BMWs have weak cooling systs and at this point there are parts that are known to wear out at around 100k miles. I was stranded once when the waterpump I put in as a replacement sheared the impeller off the shaft. Took the good old pump off the shelf and put it back into service for another 10k miles and it was still fine when I sold the car. As for the suspension overhaul, it sounds like more than it is, and is the price to be paid for the wonderful handling and ride combo that IMHO only BMW gives. Worth it every time. The broken spring is a common failure on rust belt E46s like mine, not a big deal, cheap and easy fix. Big picture - what I listed out was generally issues that should be treated as preventative maintenance, particularly the cooling system and suspension. Do those every 100k miles and you should be fine and have a great driver for 300k miles. The guy who spent $3k in repairs was getting bent over by his shop, plain and simple.

Yes, BMWs will likely take a bit more to repair and be more demanding on maintenance than the average Ford. The driving experience is worth it

I guess I need to go test drive one. It also doesn't sound like a good car for the wife. She abuses the hell out of them. I was hoping to get her something that would be fun to drive on family trips, but her idea of care is gas it and go.

How are they to work on.

In two months of ownership I've made some observations about mine. First, parts are inexpensive (on par with Corvette parts, and often cheaper than Miata parts). Second, all the parts are made in Germany, or in North America. No Chinese stuff as of yet. Third, the car is really easy to work on.

All the parts I've purchased are upgrades, or common wear items that I am replacing before taking the car to an HPDE -- brake pads, rotors, lines, tie rods, etc. Parts are also easy to find, and like the Miata, there is a wealth of good information on the internet.

Rob

What Zoo said. Parts are very reasonable. Join BMWCC. and get a decent discount at your local dealer parts counter and even better disounts from a couple Internet-savvy dealers. The cars are very easy to work on. Access is reasonable and things are laid out with ruthless German logic and efficiency. The computerized factory service manual is (TIS) is available out on the 'net and makes life much easier. There is a ton of good support out there too.

I'm not at all easy on my cars and my E46 held up just fine.

Don't test drive unless you're ready to be hooked

I'm a former BMW owner and I'll preface this by saying they drive awesome. That is the reason you buy one because there is no other in my opinion. My E36 experience was very poor. It ran the gamut of problems from numerous electrical and AC issues, to total engine failure all before 20k miles. Most of it was covered under warranty, but the AC in particular and the electrical problems persisted and got VERY expensive. AC parts are pretty high, and new BMW parts are also very high. The interior continued to be a source of issue too, as pieces would simply fall off. And I'll add that was very well maintained and not abused in any way.

I'm always amused at some owners that say "I really don't have any problems" and then list off a bunch. For a daily driver, I want one that doesn't have that list, when getting to work IS the top priority, or using it to visit customers.

My Dad is a huge BMW guy, but he will not own one out of warranty. The newer ones seem to be pretty good mechanically, but electrically they are a mess. Of course their BMW SUV is almost 8 months old now and has never had an issue, it's some kind of record I think. The 5 series has been one big drain after another though.

As an ownership cost example, the Miata never needs anything other than consumables like tires and brakes, nothing. The difference between the two ownership-wise is night and day. I always tell people to go into BMW ownership with their head, and not with their passion. It's too easy to get carried away with the latter.

To be honest, my Porsches and VWs were pretty much the same, so it all comes down to how much of the driving experience you are willing to pay for. I opted out of that experience a few years back, but my wife really wants another BMW, so what do I know...

Oh, and I still have dreams of my 944 Turbo regardless of the lost plasma you needed to sell to keep it running....

I've said this before on this forum (and was ignored). These kind of problems do not belong on car of that value. I don't care what the driving experience it.

My wife wants one in the worst way, but every time I do the research, they come back as expensive, and unreliable. Those words do not belong together.

After owning 3 E36s (325is, M3, and 318is), I can say I've never had most of the problems others have . . . .

Accept these two facts: Replace the cooling system and the E36 interior falls apart (buy some 3M adhesive spray, worked for me )

On EVERY car I have owned, I've done the mandatory suspension maintenance, so that's really nothing special. On the E36, I usually use some of the M3 OEM parts or aftermarket goodies and beat the crap out of the car. 3 seasons of Autox/Track days on the 325is and everything still looks good . . . .

If the car has been abused or not maintained, this is were all the head aches come from.

The M3 had a mystery clunk that I could never find. But that was the only strange deal I had with the car. After doing the cooling system maintenance it ran and AutoX'd flawless for 22K miles before I sold it.

The 318is I picked up has not lived a good life, but so far other than oil and gas, that's all I have put into it. Cooling system maintenance planned for it, as well as suspension maintenance . . . it does have 160K on after all

racerdave600 wrote: I My Dad is a huge BMW guy, but he will not own one out of warranty. The newer ones seem to be pretty good mechanically, but electrically they are a mess.

Dads a pretty smart guy. There is an old saying around my shop- Don't ever spend your life savings on a European car, you"ll never get to drive it.

zomby woof wrote: I've said this before on this forum (and was ignored). These kind of problems do not belong on car of that value. I don't care what the driving experience it. My wife wants one in the worst way, but every time I do the research, they come back as expensive, and unreliable. Those words do not belong together.

I'm of that opinion, too--I guess I don't "get it".

To me one of the better things about e30 and e36 BMW's is that their faults are known.

As far as my experience goes, they are pretty robust machines with wear items that need to be replaced around the 100k mile mark. Then you are good for at least another 100k.

But you are right, most honda's are more reliable; but I think most BMW's are more fun. Plus you will never get to feel the sticker shock of new plug wires with a Honda.

Friend of mine bought an 03 M3 vert. AWESOME driver car and lots of charactor, but thanks goodness for the BMW certified Preowned program. It has a little over 80k and they just replaced the 6-speed manual transmission, power steering pump, and new front rotors and sensors. Maybe the previous owner abused the car, we don't know, but without the warranty my buddy would have been out a lot of money.

I'm a lot more into Porsches than BMWs, and generally stick with older ones that are easier to work on, even though my 944 Turbo gives me bad dreams at times the bad thoughts always disappear when I go for a good drive. I'll never trade it for a Honda.....no chance in hell.

All of that being said, my 85 911 has been a great car and pretty much trouble free, so it isn't all German cars.

I know my car was abused. I am only the third owner. It was originally sold in South Carolina to a girl, it then came to NY where it was totalled in an accidently (I think the car was broadsided) and then sold to me from Mass where it had been moved to avoid the Salvage Title (I now know better about checking the VIN online)

Even for all that, it has been a VERY reliable car, very easy to work on, and aside from the spark lug wires, no more expensive to work on than the Hyundai it replaced.. and in some cases, it is easier and cheaper to work on that said Hyundai.

The problem with the E36.. it was the first BMW designed using CAD/CAM. As such the engineers knew exactly how much of anything they needed to build the car they wanted.. The accountants did too. So rather than overbuilding it like the E30 and E34, it was built RIGHT to spec.. Hence the falling apart interiors (I will admit to needing a new door card on the passengerside) drooping headliner (seems to happen to most cars) and the cooling system failures.

As for the problems with the bushings.. I do not see them as problems. This was probably how BMW decided to keep a tight suspension with a decent ride. The bushings have just enough stiffness to be precise, but are soft enough to keep vibration in check. I do not worry about it, the E36 only has 4 bushings in the entire front suspension. one each on the lower control arms, and the strut mounts. The rear of the Ti only has 6.. two to mount the subframe and two on each trailing arm. It is not like you are looking at TONS of bushings to worry about.

I guess "reliable" means different things. I have abused BMWs on a racetrack for tens of thousands of miles with 3 different versions of the 3 series without any powertrain failures. They come with nice geometry, good handling and solid performance so I don't have to spend much over a decent shock/spring/sway package and some race pads to go really fast for a long time. For me, the maintenance costs are offset by not having to fix the big stuff. If changing a few bushings and some inexpensive cooling bits every 80-100k is too much then, yeah, its not your best option.

The "little" stuff is a couple hundred bucks every 50k miles on a street car. I don't consider that to be that much money... especially considering that they are not expensive cars to buy and they are awesome to drive - an E36 328i is about 4-6k in really nice shape. My wife's '05 E46 325XiT Wagon was under $15k w/ 43k on the odo and we have had it 20k miles. I've changed the oil 3x, plugs once and spent $100 for an axle (boot tore and I was too lazy to fix in the winter). I'll spend $250 on the cooling system this summer. Pads, rotors ~250... and in 20k miles I'll buy shocks. I really don't see how that is any different than any other car except I won't bother with a timing belt - it doesn't have one. I'll change the radiator and water pump instead. Will window regulators go bad? Probably. I can swap one in 2 beers and $60. Will it need something else... sure. Will it still run well and carve corners at 300k? In my experience, yes.

zomby woof wrote: I've said this before on this forum (and was ignored). These kind of problems do not belong on car of that value. I don't care what the driving experience it.

I 100% agree, which is why I will never own a BMW or VW. Both have these issues.

My next car will either be a Ford, Subaru or Chrysler (500)

Scoobies eat transmissions and wheel bearings, and head gaskets.

Open the hood or look under a BMW. The engineering and sophistication which goes into these cars is amazing - too much so, arguably. It's the same with all German cars. The problem with this is that as the cars age, the complexity means more frequent and expensive maintenance because there's more to go wrong and many components are OEM-only. On the other hand, these cars are way more fun to drive than their counterparts in the market - which is why I've owned five of them. Just be reasonable about what to fix and for how much, do your own maintenance, and enjoy the drive.

MrJoshua wrote: Scoobies eat transmissions and wheel bearings, and head gaskets.

And when they do drive they sound like a frikkin milk crate loaded with empty beer cans.

gamby wrote:

zomby woof wrote: I've said this before on this forum (and was ignored). These kind of problems do not belong on car of that value. I don't care what the driving experience it. My wife wants one in the worst way, but every time I do the research, they come back as expensive, and unreliable. Those words do not belong together.

I'm of that opinion, too--I guess I don't "get it".

+2. I'll take mycheapo dependable cars for a third the money instead.

It sounds like the OPs wife isn't an enthusiast, and treats her cars badly. I wouldn't recommend a BMW for her. A Camry, Accord, or other appliance would seem to make more sense. BMWs make a lot of sense for those that really enjoy the driving experience. They may be a bit more maintenance intensive than a typical Japanese car, but they are also a lot more rewarding to drive.

I've had an E30 325is, and now own a E36 M3. They are both great cars and I haven't regretted owning them for a second. Neither car ever left me stranded, and neither car needed any maintenance that I thought was out of line. The E36 M3 is still one of my very favorite cars of all time. There are very few cars that do so many things so well. I'm a lucky guy and get to drive all kinds of new machinery working for GRM. Very few (if any) new cars turn me on the way my M3 does. (including 370Z, Rx-8, Corvette, etc.)

For me the cost of ownership is far outweighed by the fantastic driving experience.

All older cars will have issues, and need attention. Hondas need timing belts, Subies eat transmissions, BMWs need bushings and coolant system attention. All cars need new dampers, interior work and other bits as they get older.

That said the only new BMW I like is the M3. New BMWs have become too laden with electronic gadetry, and now are disposable cars.