If you were raised religious but are not now, why not?

Teh E36 M3 

Isn't that what the Unitarian church is for? I believe I'm still a Unitarian pastor, after sending away for the title. 

I guess if they are universalists. Never paid much attention, I only ever went to their basement. Thats where the action is. 

Beer Baron said:

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Well... in my case, it goes back to that "mistakes were made..." comment in the other thread.  But vaguely put, consider what may seem magical and supernatural is merely a matter of perspective of technology and knowledge. Humanity as a species is barely in infancy. We don't "know" anything. 

This is why I find gnosticism more offputting than theism.

It's not difficult to find anything in these discussions off-putting. And there is absolutely nothing "gnostic" about my comment. I'm only suggesting there may be other options not among the four shown in that chart.

Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

*shrug* It helped my grandfather.  He took me to meetings until I went to school.  I'd sit there reading Road & Track or something and I still remember what it sounds like when a large room full of chain smoking coffee drinkers mumbles out The Lord's Prayer.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

This is why I find gnosticism more offputting than theism.

It's not difficult to find anything in these discussions off-putting. And there is absolutely nothing "gnostic" about my comment. I'm only suggesting there may be other options not among the four shown in that chart.

Not possible, there is a CHART!

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

Beer Baron said:

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Well... in my case, it goes back to that "mistakes were made..." comment in the other thread.  But vaguely put, consider what may seem magical and supernatural is merely a matter of perspective of technology and knowledge. Humanity as a species is barely in infancy. We don't "know" anything. 

This is why I find gnosticism more offputting than theism.

It's not difficult to find anything in these discussions off-putting. And there is absolutely nothing "gnostic" about my comment. I'm only suggesting there may be other options not among the four shown in that chart.

Dude, I was *agreeing* with you. "Gnostic" means that you believe you can and do "know" with absolute certainty.

Your comment wasn't gnostic. Your comment echoed why gnosticism unsettles me. On many topics - particularly these ones of faith - there is no way of us knowing with absolute certainty. So when someone says they do know things with absolute certainty, I find it offputting. Not only is it fundamentally wrong, but it also prevents further discussion.

I'm saying that, as someone who could be classified as "agnostic atheist", I'd rather have a theological discussion with an "agnostic theist" than a "gnostic atheist". I have no issues talking with people who believe in a God. I have issues discussing theology with people who are so absolutely certain in their belief of God that they are incapable of comprehending why someone else would believe anything different.

I feel the same way about people who are firmly entrenched in political beliefs.

Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

I don't think that's entirely true.  I think it helps tons of people.  But I also think it doesn't work for many people (religion being one of the reasons).  I think its held up by society as the solution though.

ProDarwin said:

Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

I don't think that's entirely true.  I think it helps tons of people.  But I also think it doesn't work for many people (religion being one of the reasons).  I think its held up by society as the solution though.

I will pull the studies up on the statistics of how it hurts, it's one of the things we as counselors get trained on.  It's not the faith based aspect that's the problem, it's the complete lack of personal responsibility. Telling people that they aren't responsible for their own choices is hugely damaging, especially when it comes to substance abuse. Then there's the racket part where they managed to get installed as the de facto treatment ordered by courts allows the founders to rake in cash with no oversight or ties to empirical data.

Javelin said:

ProDarwin said:

Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

I don't think that's entirely true.  I think it helps tons of people.  But I also think it doesn't work for many people (religion being one of the reasons).  I think its held up by society as the solution though.

I will pull the studies up on the statistics of how it hurts, it's one of the things we as counselors get trained on.  It's not the faith based aspect that's the problem, it's the complete lack of personal responsibility. Telling people that they aren't responsible for their own choices is hugely damaging, especially when it comes to substance abuse. Then there's the racket part where they managed to get installed as the de facto treatment ordered by courts allows the founders to rake in cash with no oversight or ties to empirical data.

I would be very interested in reading those studies since AA, NA, and similar programs are the de facto "next steps" for recovering addicts in our community, some of whom end up coming to our charity for help. I'd also like anything evidence-based you've found on better programs or protocols to help former addicts that are already through detox and/or rehab, and looking for long-term accountability, support, or assistance to stay clean. We've had some clients who stayed clean long term and some who fell back (especially during the pandemic). I'd love to know the best options, based on evidence, for improving those odds. Thanks!

Zombies launched a canoe in this thread.

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren and to do good is my religion."

Thomas Paine

I think that Righteous Gemstones show was a documentary...

There's a church like that near me that actually had their own 747SP, paid for by grifting shut ins, tax free. My wife used to call in on his Sunday morning griftathon to tell him he was going to the Special Hell.

🤐🤐🤐🤐

This thread again.  Can we get it locked already?

It died a natural death can it die again?

Would a thread in the opposite direction: "If you were raised Atheist (or with out religion), Why do you now believe?"  And everyone shared their conversion story.  Would that be allowed here?

How about either one of these threads?

• "If you were formerly Republican, but are now Democt why"
• If you were formerly Democrat, but are now Republican why?"

Would those be allowed to continue?

I realized when I was around 5 that it all didnt make sense and was essentially BS.  A few years later my parents tried sending me to bible school and I had fun with the teachers poking holes in all they were saying.

Not much has changed since then.  Mary loved the D.

In reply to Indy - Guy :

What's wrong with this discussion?  Not everyone believes the same things.  Not everyone has to believe the same things, or even believe that belief is always benign.  I don't see a problem with being allowed to discuss that.

Feel free to start your thread. I, for one, speaking as a lifelong "agnostic atheist", would be very interested to see the results.

Thanks, everyone, for chiming in, but religion, politics and GRM can cause issues.