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TheRev
TheRev Reader
3/18/22 1:50 p.m.

In reply to RevRico :

You haven't and won't offend me with such questions, and you've gone out of your way to be gracious. Thank you for that. I have studied this in some detail and have not come across clear evidence of the Jesus-type story told in other cultures' religions as it is in the Bible. There are certainly stories of god or gods becoming human, living among humanity, and even dying and rising from the dead. But I am not aware of any saying that an all-powerful Deity freely chose to be born in obscurity to serve, suffer, and die for humanity. I could certainly be wrong about that, but I have not found any. If you have any specific examples, please send them my way. 

I think the primary reason this particular story stands out is that there is actually quite a lot of non-biblical evidence that a Jewish man named Jesus and called the Christ lived, suffered, and was crucified in 1st century Palestine (not for the resurrection, just for life and death). Josephus and Tacitus, 1st and 2nd Century historians who were not Christian and, in general, fairly antagonistic towards it, both mention this. Josephus presents it as fact. Tacitus mentions it as something Jesus' followers believed and were willing to be martyred for. From what I've read in modern non-Christian 1st Century ancient-near-east scholarship, it seems that most historians would agree that it is highly likely that a Jewish man named Jesus was born, lived, taught, and was crucified in 1st Cent Palestine, though they would certainly disagree with the miracle stories and resurrection story. So all that to say, this particular story does not seem to exist in the realm of religious myth or allegory. It seems to be grounded to history. At least it seems that way to me. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
3/18/22 1:50 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

You are not convincing me of anything, yet you are putting a lot of effort into convincing me that you are right. Why do you care what I think?

That kind of proves my point.

Let your crusade go on.

I do not care what you think about your higher power or your relationship with that power.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

All I was trying to do was correct your misrepresentation of what the vast majority of atheists think.

 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
3/18/22 1:58 p.m.

I was raised in the Episcopal Church and was even an acolyte when I was young. 

A few things happened that set me on a path.  My father passed away when I was 12. The local diocese selected a gay bishop and it triggered a HUGE amount of infighting. 

At that point I went towards agnostic.

Time went on and I viewed more and more examples of the rampant hypocrisy amongst pretty much every church I was exposed to.  Caring more about controlling others views rather than helping their fellow man. Looking at religions place in history as a root cause of conflict.  

Took a few philospohy courses in college. One of the most interesting things that came out of it was a pressure to examine different belief systems. Couple a lot of that with looking at history and different religions places in history. 

Lots of physics courses tied in with that made me have a lot of thought. 

I moved towards atheist and its a bit complex to explain, but the best crack I can take is this: Religion contains answers that are not concrete and often disproven in small ways to an unprovable question that most likely, ultimately does not have an answer.  I just dont feel like the answers that religion holds are likely to be valid, why does the universe need to have a larger meaning? 

 

I firmly believe that we are all in this together and that the amount which you help your fellow man and are remembered for that is the greatest calling and legacy you can leave behind in this world. I feel that the constructs of religions contain a lot of superfluous material that was put in by morally corrupt people seeking to control populations and societies over the winding path of history.  If there is a higher being, my opinion of it would be rather negative if we were in fact put here to spend a goodly portion of our existence worshiping them. 

 

The funny full circle is that due to rather poorly rated local public schools and a lack of non-religious options in an effective distance of where we live, my wife and I are most likely enrolling our kids in a private catholic school. Honestly though, I do place value on many of the moral lessons that religion teaches and at least they will have exposure to viewpoints other than my own and will be encouraged to ultimately decide for themselves as they grow what makes sense to them.

 

Ultimately, that's my takeaway. You need to seek a viewpoint of existance that makes sense to you. It isnt about being right or wrong. We can't really prove it one way or another, I just feel the way that I feel makes the most sense. I do heavily chafe at those who believe in punishing those who do not share their beliefs. It's not constructive to call out different groups, but I have had experiences where others have attacked people for not sharing precisely their belief system. I highly object to that type of viewpoint

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/18/22 2:02 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

There is a difference between an agnostic and an atheist. An agnostic just doesn't know and that's it. He just shrugs his shoulders and walks away. He doesn't argue. He doesn't try to tell you what to believe. An atheist, on the other hand, knows for a fact that there is no higher power and he will argue with you endlessly, to the point that he actually turns his non-religion into a religion. I find that ironic.

Nit picking, but it's the kind of nit that can cause endless arguments around terminology:
Atheists can't have a religion, since religions requires god(s) or other supernatural entities.  If you'd said "belief " instead of religion, you'd be correct for some atheists. 

 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/18/22 2:05 p.m.
Duke said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

You are not convincing me of anything, yet you are putting a lot of effort into convincing me that you are right. Why do you care what I think?

That kind of proves my point.

Let your crusade go on.

I do not care what you think about your higher power or your relationship with that power.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

All I was trying to do was correct your misrepresentation of what the vast majority of atheists think.

 

Why so angry?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/18/22 2:08 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Duke said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

You are not convincing me of anything, yet you are putting a lot of effort into convincing me that you are right. Why do you care what I think?

That kind of proves my point.

Let your crusade go on.

I do not care what you think about your higher power or your relationship with that power.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

All I was trying to do was correct your misrepresentation of what the vast majority of atheists think.

 

Why so angry?

I didn't find either of his responses angry. 

Asking "Why so angry?" is purposefully antagonistic for no reason. This thread has been going really well and has been interesting, lets keep it that way.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/18/22 2:10 p.m.

In reply to TheRev and RevRico :

Might I suggest that such debate would be better moved into private messages? Everyone has so far been respectful and positive in these debates and discussions. I'm sure a limited number of people would be able to keep that same level of respect. I'm just worried that in an open group like this, it's easy for an extra voice or two to dog-pile on later and latch onto the wrong ideas.

I'm kinda sorta interested in being part of that discussion, but I'd really leave that up to what TheRev is looking to get out of a theological exchange. I think you're a cool guy. I like your take on faith being one that doesn't compel you to proselytize. I think that's very healthy. I doubt I could say anything that's really going to significantly change your beliefs, and I'm not sure I'd want to do that even if I could. (I don't need to persuade you that queer, poor, atheist, or foreign people are good and don't need you to 'fix' them.)

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/18/22 2:11 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Duke said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

You are not convincing me of anything, yet you are putting a lot of effort into convincing me that you are right. Why do you care what I think?

That kind of proves my point.

Let your crusade go on.

I do not care what you think about your higher power or your relationship with that power.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

All I was trying to do was correct your misrepresentation of what the vast majority of atheists think.

 

Why so angry?

I didn't find either of his responses angry. 

Asking "Why so angry?" is purposefully antagonistic for no reason. This thread has been going really well and has been interesting, lets keep it that way.

I find your response angry. Maybe this thread isn't such a good idea after all. I seem to be pissing some people off and I didn't mean to.

Time to step out of here.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/18/22 2:13 p.m.

Perhaps as an option to locking threads there should be a "temporary freeze" for 24 hours.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/18/22 2:15 p.m.

What Is the Definition of Atheist, Agnostic, and Other Related Terms? -  Owlcation

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
3/18/22 2:18 p.m.

In reply to TheRev :

Thank you. 

In my readings, I found a distinct lack of non biblical evidence, but I can and will concede now that I'm older and far less biased, I may not have been looking in the right places. 

At some point, probably soon, I am going to have to revisit this within my own life. While the wife and I are essentially non religious, my 6 year old has been getting pulled into it by her grandmother. The same grandmother I've had several fights with over pushing political ideology onto the child with. 

For the sake of the thread, I will let this particular line drop as it can spiral quickly out of control, but I will be revisiting my historical readings. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/18/22 2:26 p.m.

Good reading on the above topic would be: On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier. There are a few youtubes of lectures you can get a preview of it. In one of them the author's challenge was to prove the opposite hypothesis and present compelling contrary evidence without resorting to poor sources. Ie it's true because it's in the bible and it's in the bible because it's true. Particularly intriguing was in the era of Jesus there was a compelling amount of parallel savior god myths in several cultures.

Revrico I hear you on the grandmother front. We had to pretend catholic enough to keep my wife's mom at bay, and now that she's gone we've happily given up the charade. Shame we had to go along with it at all. My mom is a devout E36 M3 show but easy enough to completely ignore.

It's hard to be 100% certain of anything so I'd consider myself a gnostic atheist with 95% confidence cool

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/18/22 2:29 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

There is a difference between an agnostic and an atheist. An agnostic just doesn't know and that's it. He just shrugs his shoulders and walks away. He doesn't argue. He doesn't try to tell you what to believe. An atheist, on the other hand, knows for a fact that there is no higher power and he will argue with you endlessly, to the point that he actually turns his non-religion into a religion. I find that ironic.

I would disagree with that statement. I am atheist to my core, but I have zero desire to argue or debate religion with anyone.  I was raised with religion, but as mentioned in the locked thread - mistakes were made and now religion is no longer a path I can follow. I have no desire whatsoever for anyone to follow my path and it's increasingly likely that path ends when I die.  And that is about all I can really say about it and apologize if that seems vague. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
3/18/22 2:35 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Duke said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

You are not convincing me of anything, yet you are putting a lot of effort into convincing me that you are right. Why do you care what I think?

That kind of proves my point.

Let your crusade go on.

I do not care what you think about your higher power or your relationship with that power.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

All I was trying to do was correct your misrepresentation of what the vast majority of atheists think.

Why so angry?

Why assume I'm angry?

For the record:  I'm not angry.

 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/18/22 2:39 p.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

There is a difference between an agnostic and an atheist. An agnostic just doesn't know and that's it. He just shrugs his shoulders and walks away. He doesn't argue. He doesn't try to tell you what to believe. An atheist, on the other hand, knows for a fact that there is no higher power and he will argue with you endlessly, to the point that he actually turns his non-religion into a religion. I find that ironic.

I would disagree with that statement. I am atheist to my core, but I have zero desire to argue or debate religion with anyone.  I was raised with religion, but as mentioned in the locked thread - mistakes were made and now religion is no longer a path I can follow. I have no desire whatsoever for anyone to follow my path and it's increasingly likely that path ends when I die.  And that is about all I can really say about it and apologize if that seems vague. 

I admit I was wrong on that statement. Not all atheists want to argue with the rest of the world. Some just want to live their lives with no religion and I can respect that. What I meant to say was that there are atheists out there who make non-religion into religion and turn it into some kind of weird non-religious crusade. Using Beer Baron's chart, those guys would be the Gnostic Atheists in extreme. Some of them are as strong in their anti-religious feelings as extremists on the religious side are. I really don't feel that I am on either extreme.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/18/22 3:03 p.m.

There's two discussions going on here, it seems.  One, as to the existence of God, and one of whether organized religion is good or evil.

To the original question, raised in a very religious family, decided it was all hooey, and quit.  Don't push anybody either way.

After I'm dead, I'm worm food.

Not even remotely frightened of death, although I do have some concerns about the process of getting there.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
3/18/22 3:29 p.m.

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

It's been 6 pages of people stating what they believe and why. You come in as a believer, start arguing, and calling others angry. Please stop. It's been a very respectful thread until that point. No one is angry here from what I've seen, except you. 

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand UberDork
3/18/22 4:04 p.m.

I was raised religious.  I still am, but not a "by the book" religious person.

Is there a great creator out there that made everything?  Yes., I believe so.

Has mankind twisted every religion to further mankind's own purposes?  Yes, I believe so. 

Hence the "not by the book" part.

 

 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/18/22 4:29 p.m.

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

People who attempt to force their beliefs onto others are shiny happy people. It doesn't matter if those beliefs are religious, atheistic, political, vegan, crossfit, or about drinking Laphroig. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just because some people who work out can't shut up about crossfit, they're a pretty small subsection of those of us who like to work out. They annoy us too. None of us here are going on about how you don't know what whisky is supposed to be if you don't drink Laphroig neat.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/18/22 4:44 p.m.
Beer Baron said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

People who attempt to force their beliefs onto others are shiny happy people. It doesn't matter if those beliefs are religious, atheistic, political, vegan, crossfit, or about drinking Laphroig. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just because some people who work out can't shut up about crossfit, they're a pretty small subsection of those of us who like to work out. They annoy us too. None of us here are going on about how you don't know what whisky is supposed to be if you don't drink Laphroig neat.

I do agree with that. Evangelizing should be explaining your beliefs and making it available for those who are interested. Not going to war against those who might believe differently. That is a problem many people have with religion. I can understand that.

I think we could use a good whisky thread here. Arguing about whisky may require opening a few bottles. laugh

1SlowVW
1SlowVW HalfDork
3/18/22 8:19 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Beer Baron said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

People who attempt to force their beliefs onto others are shiny happy people. It doesn't matter if those beliefs are religious, atheistic, political, vegan, crossfit, or about drinking Laphroig. Pretty sure we can all agree on that.

Just because some people who work out can't shut up about crossfit, they're a pretty small subsection of those of us who like to work out. They annoy us too. None of us here are going on about how you don't know what whisky is supposed to be if you don't drink Laphroig neat.

I do agree with that. Evangelizing should be explaining your beliefs and making it available for those who are interested. Not going to war against those who might believe differently. That is a problem many people have with religion. I can understand that.

I think we could use a good whisky thread here. Arguing about whisky may require opening a few bottles. laugh

Evangelizing should involve no words. Just deeds. If you do well enough by enough people. Maybe some of those people will ask why. That is the point where it is appropriate in a tactful way that you do this because you believe that is what God wants you to do. 
I think the jehovas whiteness have shown us that you can have all the hustle in the world and if people aren't curious and receptive your hit rate is going to be very low. 

 

Edit: Then again you shouldn't need to believe in a higher power to want to help people, nor should you do good by people just because you do. It's messy I guess. 

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
3/18/22 9:25 p.m.
1SlowVW said:

Edit: Then again you shouldn't need to believe in a higher power to want to help people, nor should you do good by people just because you do. It's messy I guess. 

This is a great summary of my thoughts, and I think a lot of people in this thread. 

Do good to do good. Help out your friends and family, even strangers when you can. Don't be a dick to people until they've shown their true colors. 

Don't do it because you're trying to get to heaven, do it because it's the right thing to do. Doing it to get to heaven or whatever afterlife you believe in is like filming yourself donating to the homeless, at that point you're doing good sure, but only because you want to appear better than others. 

While "the right thing" can be a can of worms all itself, I think everybody can agree that buying someone a meal, donating your old clothing, sharing your skills and experiences are all good and positive things to do. 

 

Comes back to the forum rule, don't be a Dick.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
3/18/22 9:49 p.m.

Wait wait wait ...  What's wrong with Laphroaig?  It's my first bottle of a good peaty Islay and I like it?

Although, my next spirits revelation was discovering mezcal, so...?

(I feel like we have had some of those threads?)

 

Point is, it shouldn't piss me off if you like to drink malort, just don't try to force me to drink it and say I like it. (I do own a bottle, it's all in good fun. So awful it's an experience worth sharing)

JThw8
JThw8 UltimaDork
3/18/22 10:37 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
JThw8 said:
Mndsm said:

In reply to JThw8 :

Read stranger in a strange land by Heinlein sometime if you haven't already. That books taken a lot more of an affect on me than it probably should  it's definitely got that start a religion feel to it. 

You want to really get freaked out read the Empire series by Orson Scott Card.   The first book was a bit too close to home, the 2nd (written in the early 2000s) starts with discussions of how to preempt a Russian invasion of the Ukrane and the start of a world wide pandemic.   It was a bit too on the nose.

 

Exactly what science fiction should be. The closer it actually predicts the future, the better. I have read a lot of Card's stuff, including his early stories published in Analog, but I haven't read that one. He is very prolific and there are many books.

Card is a Mormon and the great, great, great grandson of Brigham Young if that matters. His movie Enders Game was also boycotted by the LGBT Community because of his beliefs.

The majority of my "reading" is books on tape these days and Card has said many times he writes in a manner suited to be an oral play.  He is correct his books work very well on tape and he usually has stellar narrators.  All that to say I've read most of his books and enjoy his work.   And the LGBT community dodged a bulled because the movie version of Enders Game was terrible.  Similar to the movie version of Ready Player One (not a Card book but another favorite) both are just too nuanced with such great character building to be distilled down to 2 hours or less.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
3/18/22 10:49 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Point being I was being raised to become a believer. Never got that far. The word "Why" featured too much in my young mind. Moving to Canada from such a Catholic-centric place like PR was mind blowing. Canada seems to be agnostic as a nation. If there was a God in Canada, he went to FL to stay warm.

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