In reply to RichardSIA :
Good points and beyond that, who would you prefer shows up to get you down from the fifth floor of a burning building before it collapses...
1. 50th percentile smarts, 50th percentile strength, 50th percentile determination to do whatever it takes and has never done weed.
2. 95th percentile smarts, 95th percentile strength, 95th percentile determination to do whatever it takes but partied a little in college.
Clearly 2 > 1 so what exactly is the polygraph accomplishing?
Mr. Peabody said:RichardSIA said:Anyone else remember the who and why of LSD being invented?
Yes, it was discovered by accident by a chemist named Hoffman who was trying to develop a blood stimulant.
I seem to know an awful lot about LSD
Hmm, my memory has always been Fed. Gov. attempt at a "Truth Serum".
Give a dose of LSD and then ask questions.
Naturally not too effective, probably why mention of Polygraph reminded me of it.
I once sued a person in small claims court who was close to graduating from Law School.
She volunteered to the judge that she would take a Poly to "Prove" she was telling the truth. She was lying through her teeth, and to the judges credit he saw through the ploy and denied it.
His actual words were "I am continuing this matter, somebody here is lying and needs to bring a lawyer when we reconvene."
I did not bring a lawyer, she did!
I still won. That was when I did some research on Poly test.
RichardSIA said:Threatened into it, maybe, but not lawfully compelled.
AIUI polygraphs are not admissible as evidence in court.
There are various situations in which you "have" to pass a polygraph, but they're generally requirements in order to get some kind of govt job or security clearance. It's voluntary because you can always decide you don't want that job after all.
I've always figured if you were hiring a cop, you wouldn't want the super squeaky clean, dudley do-right kind of guy.
The "I've never even stolen a pen from work" sort of guy also seems like the sort of guy who would have youth charged for harmless shenanigans that are illegal but would normally fall under the "you boys need to go home now" umbrella.
You know, the sort of stuff we've all done but managed to get a warning instead of a criminal record.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:RichardSIA said:Threatened into it, maybe, but not lawfully compelled.
AIUI polygraphs are not admissible as evidence in court.
There are various situations in which you "have" to pass a polygraph, but they're generally requirements in order to get some kind of govt job or security clearance. It's voluntary because you can always decide you don't want that job after all.
Polygraphs are also very easy to defeat, at least invalidate.
They work on a variation from baseline.... alter the baseline.
As noted, they are only really useful as a threat (and observing what happens after that threat)
Mr. Peabody said:Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to NOHOME :
I don't know that we've run across someone who doesn't have Facebook. I'm not part of the interview board. But if they deny social media accounts I'm sure the polygraph examiner would ask and confirm the truth of it.
Our age cut-off for new hires is 35 years old. Zero illicit drug usage which will be verified by polygraph, credit history and several other hurdles they have to overcome. The interview board interviews their neighbors before they get a job offer.
The applicants want the job and they apparently don't mind running the gauntlet described above. There's always a line of guys trying to get the job.
I thought the initial post was in bad taste, but that's downright disgusting.
And polygraph? Really?
Then don't apply. Pretty simple.
ShawnG said:I've always figured if you were hiring a cop, you wouldn't want the super squeaky clean, dudley do-right kind of guy.
The "I've never even stolen a pen from work" sort of guy also seems like the sort of guy who would have youth charged for harmless shenanigans that are illegal but would normally fall under the "you boys need to go home now" umbrella.
You know, the sort of stuff we've all done but managed to get a warning instead of a criminal record.
You want to hear something really crazy?
In most states and municipalities, it takes 3 times the amount of training, by hour, to become a cosmetologist than it does to become a cop.
And in most places, if you can pass that it's "21, no felonies, GED."
Think about that, lol
Some of y'all are pretty clueless about what the average fireman has to go through to get his job.
The steps to gaining employment are detailed right from the start. The candidate consents to the process when he begins. If you find any of the process to be objectionable, simply get in your car and drive down the street to some other career. The job info sheet that is published gives all of the details so there are no surprises.
We don't hire 50 percentile anybody.
A prerequisite to apply is a number of college hours and be either a certified Paramedic or a Licensed Paramedic. The applicants sit down and take a written test and they are processed according to score. Seldom does anyone who makes less than a 97 or 98 on the test get a job, so no 50 percentiler makes the cut.
Strength ? The physical agility test weeds that out. The mannikin that the candidate has to carry and maneuver weighs 190 pounds so you know he can carry someone in an emergency. The test also involves climbing the 100 foot ladder and doing some things up there to prove no fear of heights. There is a blackout component where the candidate is blinded and must complete tasks and extricate himself from a maze to weed out the claustrophobia. There are fire hoses to be drug across a distance (strength). There are ladders to be carried smoothly (agility). There is an axe use simulator (cardio). I'm sure I'm forgetting something but that's a bulk of it. In the end, the candidate has proven his brute strength, his lack of claustrophobia, his ability to not panic when trapped, his agility, and hs cardio endurance. Again, no one in the 50 percentile gets through this.
The candidate then fills out a background booklet. When I did it back in 2001, the book was 32 pages. Once he turns his booklet in it gets quiet for a few weeks as the background investigators are doing their thing. This step gets a lot of guys. Last I spoke with an investigator, this washes out about 60+ percent of the candidates.
The next step is interview board. This is a 5 person panel who interviews the candidate. Once the interview is over, the board must have a 100% consensus on the guy for him to pass.
After that, the candidate is sent down to the police building where he undergoes the polygraph. The candidate must pass the polygraph. An inconclusive result is a fail. You must score "no deception" to continue in the process.
Next the candidate is sent to the hospital where a physician runs him through a series of tests and exams to make sure the candidate doesn't have any unknown underlying issues. This is the stage where the candidate is drug tested.
If the candidate passes through everything up to now, he then proceeds to the interview with the Fire Chief. If the Chief gives him a pass, the candidate is given a job offer.
But really, why wouldn't a citizen want their municipal firemen to have to go through this process? We have full access to Fentanyl, Dilaudid, Morphine, Ketamine, Ativan, Versed, Valium....(all trucks are equipped with full MICU equipment) . You don't trust just any clown to be in control of those narcotics. When you're hurt and I'm doing drug calculations and drawing up the drugs to treat you, don't you want me to be pretty squared away and not get confused with decimal points and mg/kg and drip calculations? I mean, it's just life and death.
Every fire truck is equipped with a key that will open any business in the city (a Knox key). I can take that key and open a locked business door and walk right in 24 hours per day. If you're a business owner, wouldn't you want your municipal firemen to have proven their integrity before being entrusted with that ? Wouldn't you want me to be the guy you can trust to actually lock the door after we leave so some crackhead doesn't come in and steal you blind ?
The fireman is routinely involved in the exchange of private information concerning the citizens. Drivers licenses, addresses, birthdates, SSN, medical history.... You wouldn't want your Nana's private info being compromised would you ? Well fear not, she will be delivered safely to the hospital and all info will be kept secure throughout the process. So will her giant bottle of pain meds. Every single pill will be there when we pass it to the staff at the hospital.
In summation, these are the guys who routinely enter your houses and businesses when you're not there. These are the guys who care for you and your loved ones when they may be incapacitated, unconscious or even dead. These are the guys who assure the security of you and your stuff even when you can't do it yourself. That is why the hurdles to entry are so high. If you can pass all of the obstacles to employment you will have proven yourself worthy of that responsibility.
If you don't like it, a career in this field isn't for you. Take care, best of luck.
In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
I like most of that, if you have a career people are lining up for I don't understand why you wouldn't be as selective as possible. We've had to relax many of our requirements lately to get people and it definitely shows.
Steve_Jones said:In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
My grandma would want them to cop a feel.
Grandma would gladly let them take some E36 M3ty, chintzy jewelry, and ah...buddy, those are stool softeners. And they're suppositories. Breast cancer took any cops to feel. She safe from sketchy firefighters. 
In reply to Steve_Jones :
An excellent, though irrelevant suggestion, thank you.
You see, the process is only as robust as it's weakest link, and there are some very weak links in that process, rendering the whole thing rather dubitable.
Either way, I'm in Canada where most of that wouldn't be allowed anyway, and for good reason.
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) said:The candidate then fills out a background booklet. When I did it back in 2001, the book was 32 pages. Once he turns his booklet in it gets quiet for a few weeks as the background investigators are doing their thing. This step gets a lot of guys. Last I spoke with an investigator, this washes out about 60+ percent of the candidates.
This is super standard in the defense contracting industry. A significant portion of the population around DC has gone through this for the basic level clearance. I wonder how detailed the background people are with the various social media outlets now.
Top Secret adds more on top of this, and there is a SCI/Polygraph level as well.
I won't say its unnecessary, but once you are inside everything is locked down/restricted in similar ways. Its a miracle anything ever gets done in the defense industry.
In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
Unless it's required to expand your hiring from the standard pool, and a bunch of that goes out the window.
In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
I tried out for a firefighter job back when I was about 21. I did the written test, strength and agility test, and polygraph was as far as I made it. As far as the physical test, when I got there the last applicant was being hauled off in an ambulance for chest pains. Not a great sign. I was in decent shape and passed, nd I didn't barf, but it was as close as I ever came to barfing from physical exertion. Even without a job offer, it was pretty cool to go through the process and see what it was like. This was 20 years ago so people social media wasn't really an issue.
In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
Ahh. That's making more sense now. I was figuring standard pencil pushing stuff and hyperactive HR. Good info
If you have kids that have any intention of playing (especially on scholarship) at the college level, be aware that college coaches check their social media as well. Plenty of kids have had scholarship offers yanked because of social media posts.
A few semi random thoughts of my own, most of which have been reflected in bits of what others have said.
First, I work in IT. "locking down" your accounts is the biggest folly most people make. Nothing is really secure on the internet, and the false sense of security most people get from "locking down" their account leads them to behave poorly. As others here have said, treat everything you post on the internet as public, if you self filter you dont need to rely on other unsecured methods.
Second, I'm a hiring manager these days (yeah I dont know what they were thinking either) I dont care what people do on their own time. I will look at their LinkedIn accounts because those are intended to be a professional representation of a person so I do have interest in that.
I also have a strict separation of work and personal life in that regard. I have a few close co-workers who have pestered me to add them on social platforms so we can share in our shared interests outside of work. I will not do it. My profiles are public, they can see and comment on what they like if they like, but I dont make associations between my work and personal accounts. To the extent that most friends and family dont even know what I do for a living (my SIL is convinced I work for the CIA since no one really knows) I dont mind discussing it, in person, but I never want anything I say to be associated with my employer. Its also akward due to the nature of where I work that certain casual conversations can lead to me having to do a lot of paperwork so Id just prefer not to have those conversations.
gearheadmb said:In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) : I was in decent shape and passed, nd I didn't barf, but it was as close as I ever came to barfing from physical exertion.
You're the kind of candidate we like to see. A lot of younger folks don't put any effort into it. Once the test gets hard they quit. I wouldn't mind in the least if a candidate puked on the testing ground. That shows me they pulled out all the stops. That shows heart and determination.
When we put on our physical agility test I'm known to be a bit of a drill sargent. When a candidate is doing well but is showing signs of giving up I go full Lee Ermey on them."Drag that berkeleying hose. Drag it. Do you want this job or not. Now stand your ass up and do work".
In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :
I can't help but read this and compare where there are paid fireman and comparing to the volunteer houses around here.
Half the guys are as wide as they are tall. The different companies have been known to fight over who gets to put out the damn fire. I can't imagine any of them passing any of those sorts of tests.
In reply to RevRico :
Don't forget, their method to weed out the undesireables is to make the rookie do the dishes with a dinner roll wedged in his butt crack.
racerfink said:If you have kids that have any intention of playing (especially on scholarship) at the college level, be aware that college coaches check their social media as well. Plenty of kids have had scholarship offers yanked because of social media posts.
Yup.
A co worker's daughter's soccer coach would expel you from the team if any photo tagging you had visible beer in it, and presumably other substances as well. Even as innocuous as a bottle of beer in the background somewhere.
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