Is it me, or are vehicle sales really that broken? A question wrapped in a rant

Oh joy. It looks like I have the misfortune of having to shop for two, potentially three vehicles for the family over the next six months. I actually used to like shopping for vehicles, but I have to say that the more recent experiences are about to convert me into a "buy and hold" vehicle buyer if this E36 M3 continues.

First, I'm looking for a replacement bike for my Triumph Tiger - never really managed to get comfortable on the bike and finally decided to pull the plug and go shopping for a road sofa because I actually, like, want to ride instead of trying to fix up the bike so I could ride.

Decided to check out two highly rated dealers around here (at least according to Yelp). Dropped by the Harley dealer first. Can't find a sales person for a while, finally managed to corner one and tell him "this is what I have and want to trade in, this is what I'm looking for, I want to buy within the next 2-3 weeks, show me what you've got". First he implies that he doesn't have bikes cheap enough for sir, then suggests they don't take these funny furrin' bikes in trades and I should sell it to the place across the road and come back with the cash. Thanks but no thanks, and I won't bother your establishment again.

Honda dealer down the road is completely different - sales guy (who admitted he was new on the job, but clearly knew how to sell) listens carefully, gets a colleague for a second opinion, within a few minutes we have identified a few suitable bikes and as one of them is a new Goldwing, "hey, do you want to test ride one now?". Had to decline (still a bit wobbly on my feet) but promised to come back next weekend.

I've run into this exact scenario with several dealers by now, both car and motorcycle. Sales "pros" seemed to be very adamant at either steering me towards something I didn't want (oi muppet, if I come in looking for an brand-new Mitsu Evo, Civic Type-R or a brand new BMW tourer, I don't want to shop in your bargain bin) or their "timewaster" filter is completely and utterly broken.

I usually know what I'm looking for and I'll happily tell you what I'm cross shopping your vehicle with and what my timeframe is for purchasing one. I do that so I don't waste your time and you don't waste mine.

Yet for some reason (and also presumably because I a) come prepared and b) don't "dress up" - obviously I dress OK in shirt and jeans, but I don't have benjamins falling out of my pockets), I cop an attitude from about 50% of car or motorcycle dealers that telegraphs "I don't think you can't afford what you want so I'm going to try and sell you something you don't want in the most insulting way possible in order to make you go away".

Funnily enough that doesn't seem to happen at dealerships that either employ salespeople who've got massive amounts of experience, or are a bit higher end.

Of course the other, less charitable interpretation is that I look like the sort of bozo who would buy a brand-new Alfa Romeo or other FCA product and put up with the warranty problems. Or if I were to buy say Type R, probably also be a Honda warranty's department worst nightmare because lots of E36 M3 would break that "we've never seen go wrong", so they don't want me (and I don't fit the demographic)

Oh, and that's just dealing with dealers and their sales unprofessionals. For real fun, try to buy something privately and in most cases, a DIY appendectomy without the benefit of an anesthetic suddenly sounds like more fun.

This begs the question - do I expect too much to actually deal with a sales professional, or am I doing something wrong (other than trying to deal with a car or motorcycle dealer, I already figured out that part)?

And you haven't even talked to the financing guys yet. That's where the real fun is. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

And you haven't even talked to the financing guys yet. That's where the real fun is. 

That rant would've broken t'Internet . Actually that part is usually not that bad because I come prepared. It's usually - here's the pre-approved rate from my credit union, try to beat it. Still takes an hour and a half, though, but I'm pretty convincing by now with the "I'm happy to walk out of here right now" routine and the "you pulled that Patriot act E36 M3 out of your behind" routine. And I have walked.

BoxheadTim said:
Yet for some reason (and also presumably because I a) come prepared and b) don't "dress up" - obviously I dress OK in shirt and jeans, but I don't have benjamins falling out of my pockets), I cop an attitude from about 50% of car or motorcycle dealers that telegraphs "I don't think you can't afford what you want so I'm going to try and sell you something you don't want in the most insulting way possible in order to make you go away".

Funnily enough that doesn't seem to happen at dealerships that either employ salespeople who've got massive amounts of experience, or are a bit higher end.

The richest guy I know sometimes comes to the office in cargo shorts and short sleeve shirts. He's probably worth high tens of millions. It's amazing to me that anyone in sales would ever talk down to someone that's underdressed. Only people looking to impress bother dressing up, especially when running an errand. To that demographic, buying a Harley is like one of us buying groceries. Only even cheaper. They're not going to dress up to do it.

Funny thing is, I think the higher end dealerships know that. They see how actual wealthy Americans tend to dress - and let me tell you, it's typically not well. The better dressed are service industry people or those trying to work their way up or appear richer than they are.

dculberson said:

BoxheadTim said:
Yet for some reason (and also presumably because I a) come prepared and b) don't "dress up" - obviously I dress OK in shirt and jeans, but I don't have benjamins falling out of my pockets), I cop an attitude from about 50% of car or motorcycle dealers that telegraphs "I don't think you can't afford what you want so I'm going to try and sell you something you don't want in the most insulting way possible in order to make you go away".

Funnily enough that doesn't seem to happen at dealerships that either employ salespeople who've got massive amounts of experience, or are a bit higher end.

The richest guy I know sometimes comes to the office in cargo shorts and short sleeve shirts. He's probably worth high tens of millions. It's amazing to me that anyone in sales would ever talk down to someone that's underdressed. Only people looking to impress bother dressing up, especially when running an errand. To that demographic, buying a Harley is like one of us buying groceries. Only even cheaper. They're not going to dress up to do it.

That's what I call the "Texas rule" - the guy with the duct taped boots, worn jeans and shirt likely owns a few hundred square miles around the place. I'm not exactly in that demographic, but we're doing OK, and I'm actually using that as a filter these days. Annoys me that I have to, though.

Funny thing is, I think the higher end dealerships know that. They see how actual wealthy Americans tend to dress - and let me tell you, it's typically not well. The better dressed are service industry people or those trying to work their way up or appear richer than they are.

Indeed. If you're rich enough to not have to care much about other people's opinion, you don't usually try to advertise the fact.

Interesting comment from a friend of mine who's one of the best salespeople I know - "that's why I've always been taught that a good salesperson has two ears and only one mouth".

People seem to forget that.

Just to clarify, I don't object to be sold to by someone who's actually trying to get me to spend more money if it enhances what I'm looking for.

For me the worst part was all the formalities of attempting to sell me a truck and insisting we go on a test drive when I literally walked in the door with the truck i wanted and told them “bring me this truck, there’s the one i am trading in”.  Stop asking me if I’m taking it home, i flat out told you i want that truck before i knew your name, here’s my almost 6 figure pre approval, get me out of here.  I was there for 7 hours, and will never go back. 

My mom played it right last time, she went and found the van she wanted, told them to wrap up all the paperwork and she would be back the next day to sign stuff and drive it home.  I’m doing that next time.

as for dress, i dress like a carpenter because i am one.  Sometimes i am dirty.  If you want to sell me something, you’d better look past the fact that i probably have sawdust in my hair and caulk on my shirt or i’m gone.  I still remember back in 99-00ish, i had a trash crown vic that got me through the winter for $500 and showed up to a gm dealer with enough cash in my pocket for a 94 Z28.  They literally looked out the window of their mobile trailer used car office and closed the blinds.  I damn sure didn’t buy the car from them.

1. There are a ton of salespeople but very few are any good at it.

2. I think it's clear that dealers are broken when you think about how they rely on their lobbyists to keep them in business. 

3. And when you think about how there are lots of startups right now out there to disrupt the industry (Carvana, CarMax, Tesla, etc), you know there's blood in the water.

Wouldn't take a Triumph in trade? An actual motorcycle? Hell, I traded in my Vespa, for a Harley. A damn scooter! 

In reply to BoxheadTim :

You should look at it wearing a salesmen’s shoes.  Selling cars is the most soul crushing thing a human can do.  

Tell the customer the truth and you will not sell him anything. Sell him what he wants for what he wants to pay and you won’t make a living. In fact management won’t approve the deal.  

You can’t blame the customer, buying cars is one of the few things people must do that calls for ordinary people trying to negotiate.  You don’t negotiate for food, clothing, or any of the essentials of ordinary life. You see the price and pay it or don’t buy it. 

Above all you don’t bring a half eaten apple in and try to trade it for a new Apple.  So the typical buyer doesn’t know how to do it. That makes him fearful and fear is very close to anger.  

Your trade in is worth much more to you than to a dealer who has no market for that particular thing.  If he did take it in before he sells it it has to be in shape to sell.  You may be able to live with or work around problems but to get money for it it has to be in desirable shape for the average buyer.  

Next realize dealers need to make a really big profit just to cover his overhead. Taxes, wages, lights advertising etc.  Plus the whole reason he’s in business is to cover all that and make a profit.  

It’s not about rich or poor,  salesmen don’t care.  But they are working just the same as you do.  They are expected to produce something their boss can make a profit from. Just like you do when you work. 

In reply to Patrick :

Don’t go in to buy!  Use the internet!  On the internet you have all the power they have none. Once you’re on their grounds they have all the power and know the tricks. 

Robbie said:

1. There are a ton of salespeople but very few are any good at it.

2. I think it's clear that dealers are broken when you think about how they rely on their lobbyists to keep them in business. 

3. And when you think about how there are lots of startups right now out there to disrupt the industry (Carvana, CarMax, Tesla, etc), you know there's blood in the water.

1. There are 100 salesmen who try for every one who succeeds. There are 1000 who try for every one that lasts 5 years. 

It always looks easy from the outside. Whole lot easier on the surface than whatever job you do. Simply because you haven’t experienced the soul crushing life of a salesman.  

As to how car dealers work politicians to improve things for themselves. They are no different than any business owner with the resources.  Maybe a little more crude and less oily than the good ones can achieve their goals. 

As for alternatives?  That is always been going on,  heck right back to the horsetrading days. 

dculberson said:

BoxheadTim said:
Yet for some reason (and also presumably because I a) come prepared and b) don't "dress up" - obviously I dress OK in shirt and jeans, but I don't have benjamins falling out of my pockets), I cop an attitude from about 50% of car or motorcycle dealers that telegraphs "I don't think you can't afford what you want so I'm going to try and sell you something you don't want in the most insulting way possible in order to make you go away".

Funnily enough that doesn't seem to happen at dealerships that either employ salespeople who've got massive amounts of experience, or are a bit higher end.

The richest guy I know sometimes comes to the office in cargo shorts and short sleeve shirts. He's probably worth high tens of millions. It's amazing to me that anyone in sales would ever talk down to someone that's underdressed. Only people looking to impress bother dressing up, especially when running an errand. To that demographic, buying a Harley is like one of us buying groceries. Only even cheaper. They're not going to dress up to do it.

Funny thing is, I think the higher end dealerships know that. They see how actual wealthy Americans tend to dress - and let me tell you, it's typically not well. The better dressed are service industry people or those trying to work their way up or appear richer than they are.

You have it right. When I was a young working man a big part of my income was spent on expensive suits, shoes, pens, and other falderall designed to impress. 

Today my clothes keep me warm and comfortable in the cold and cool and comfortable on hot days. 

But you never know about sales folk.  Many years ago, I was in college and working swing shift at a lumber mill.  Long hair, big beard, torn jeans, boots, plaid flannel over thermals - basically looked like a bum.  Walked into a Ferrari dealership in San Francisco just to drool.  Sales guy comes up to me and talks for a bit, finding out in the process that I came from the middle of the Emerald Triangle, Humboldt County. 

He threw me when he asked if I wanted to take a test drive.  Stupidly, I was honest, told him I couldn't afford the lug nuts for his Dino, and asked why he would think I could.  He told me he had a guy come in who was dressed much worse than I was and had paid for a Ferrari with stacks of $100s...  Apparently a pot grower from Humboldt.

So...you're buying a Goldwing? They took you seriously, and offered a test ride? That's unheard of. Never offered a test ride. Ever.

frenchyd said:

Next realize dealers need to make a really big profit just to cover his overhead. Taxes, wages, lights advertising etc.  Plus the whole reason he’s in business is to cover all that and make a profit.  

I’m going to have to take issue with this statement as service and parts keeps the lights on. Sales provides the profit, unless you’re selling a thousand units a month every month. Most dealers sell 50-100 to be considered “successful”.

Some of the clothing thing is regional -- you just moved to the east coast from California, right?  My impression is that dressing nice is considered much more important on the east coast than the west.

Ranger50 said:

frenchyd said:

Next realize dealers need to make a really big profit just to cover his overhead. Taxes, wages, lights advertising etc.  Plus the whole reason he’s in business is to cover all that and make a profit.  

I’m going to have to take issue with this statement as service and parts keeps the lights on. Sales provides the profit, unless you’re selling a thousand units a month every month. Most dealers sell 50-100 to be considered “successful”.

My years selling  the managers always explained that profit comes from parts and service. If they are lucky sales pays the overhead.  

I used to have the authority to sell new cars for as little as $300 over cost, $100 over cost with management approval, and at certain times with certain cars that the dealership had paid a lot of floor plan costs on The dealership would be willing to sell for less than what they originally paid for it. 

Used cars, unless we made at least $1000 profit had to go through 3 “elevator rides”  where one manager after another took a shot at increasing the profit.  

But really it’s semantics.  As you point out a certain level of sales is required, plus future profit comes from the new cars sold. Granted they won’t see much of that profit until after the car is past the warranty. However there is a formula of new cars sold compared to total sales that is used to determine the financial strength of a dealership.  

If new sales fall off profit 3-5 years down the road will be poor. 

Appleseed said:

So...you're buying a Goldwing? They took you seriously, and offered a test ride? That's unheard of. Never offered a test ride. Ever.

 No kidding. I've been told I can't even SIT on a Goldwing without a deposit, much less test ride one. But Harleys? Stop in any dealership on a whim, and they've let me take rides on anything except CVO models. 

I think it’s sales in general that is broken, not just car sales. I usually do my homework and know what I want to buy before I go out my door. What I want is someone to sell me something. Tell me about the product. Make a pitch. Offer an expert insight into the product. Make me excited. Sell it. Doesn’t matter what it is. Cars, guitars, tools, hamburgers, I just want someone to get me excited about spending the money I plan to spend anyway. Seems hard to find anywhere. 

The reason those outward signs of wealth work (ragardless of whether there is money backing them) is that nobody cares how much money you have, they care about your willingness to spend. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

Good point!!

frenchyd said:

In reply to BoxheadTim :

You should look at it wearing a salesmen’s shoes.  Selling cars is the most soul crushing thing a human can do.  

Not my problem - in my book, if you do a job you either strive to do it with excellence, or you GTFO. Sorry, but if I'm running a business that depends on salespeople to keep the lights on, I can't afford to hire E36 M3ty ones.

I don't think I could make a living as a commission based salesperson, but in my job I work a lot with salespeople and because of what I do (consulting/professional services) I actually need to be able to sell clients on a proposed solution. Which means I probably have less fear of salespeople, but also less respect for bad ones.

Tell the customer the truth and you will not sell him anything. Sell him what he wants for what he wants to pay and you won’t make a living. In fact management won’t approve the deal.  

Funnily enough you're doing exactly the thing that I accused the salespeople of, namely you're jumping to the conclusion that I'm complaining because I didn't get to beat up the sales person on price.

Especially in the case of the Harley dealer we didn't even get that far. I explained to the sales person what I was looking for and what I was cross-shopping with (and what the trade was), expecting that he'd at least spend 30s to tell me "hey, these are the models you want to look at, here are the accessories you want to improve your experience, bring in your potential trade during the week and we'll check it over while you test ride the bike". Nothing more, nothing less.

Above all you don’t bring a half eaten apple in and try to trade it for a new Apple.  So the typical buyer doesn’t know how to do it. That makes him fearful and fear is very close to anger.  

Sorry, but a good sales person's job is to take that fear away if they notice it. That's literally, like, their job.

Your trade in is worth much more to you than to a dealer who has no market for that particular thing.  If he did take it in before he sells it it has to be in shape to sell.  You may be able to live with or work around problems but to get money for it it has to be in desirable shape for the average buyer.  

Conclusions, you're jumping to them (see above).

Next realize dealers need to make a really big profit just to cover his overhead. Taxes, wages, lights advertising etc.  Plus the whole reason he’s in business is to cover all that and make a profit.  

You're insinuating that I begrudge them their profit. I don't. I've run three businesses of my own and I understand the concept of profit despite working with Silicon Valley companies .

What I do have a problem with is the clear rip-off parts (sorry, the "market value adjustment") but I actually want the sales person to make a decent living, because guess who I'm going back to the next time I need a new vehicle? The salesperson at the dealer who treated me like an adult.

Appleseed said:

So...you're buying a Goldwing? They took you seriously, and offered a test ride? That's unheard of. Never offered a test ride. Ever.

They did, and they did notice the look of disbelief on my face. What they explained to me is that the higher tier of Honda dealers actually gets bikes (I think it's only Goldwings) from Honda specifically for test rides, and they happen to be one of those dealers.

codrus said:

Some of the clothing thing is regional -- you just moved to the east coast from California, right?  My impression is that dressing nice is considered much more important on the east coast than the west.

Well, I didn't show up in my "homeless IT guy" rags. I was actually wearing a nice casual shirt - not one of my expensive British work shirts, admittedly and clean new jeans. I'm aware that you're dressing a little bit less casually over here than on the West Coast but I tended to overdress on the West Coast a bit anyway.