We have been chasing a proper diagnosis for my son's mystery health issues (that started around the time of C19). A recent "Great Plains" mycotoxin/mold test (a urine test) shows elevated levels of Ochratoxin A and Citrinin. All other stuff was zero or below "safe" levels but these two indicated high. So one theory is the house is poisoning us...
Does anyone have experience with mold investigation? I know there is a thing called an "industrial hygienist" but I don't know much about household testing. I'm an architect and have a decent understanding of my house and it's certain to have some issues.. but where do I begin? Airborn mold? Dusty mold?
What I can say up front: In the house we have a five inch deep Merv 10 pleated air filter on our forced air HVAC system which is located in a mostly finished basement. We had the ducts cleaned last fall (not the $75 Groupon cleaning but a truly professional job). One bathroom where my teenager showers had some mold on the ceiling (removed today with bleach) and I recently replaced the exhaust fan one with a more powerful one.
Halp?
We had a mold problem in our house when we bought it. Very very high penicillium and aspergillis due to tons of water incursion from bad prior owners. (10 years with no gutter cleanings!) After getting the water ingress sorted out and getting rid of inundated insulation and drywall we had Servpro come through and do mold "fogging." They used a product called Modec md-400 and charged about $800. The house smelled like a dentist office afterwards then over the course of a few weeks cleared out and smelled ... good. Prior to this it stank so badly of mold and damp that my roofer pulled his shirt up over his nose and spent as little time as possible inside due to the smell. It was quite a transformation.
In reply to dculberson :
Was the fog intended to kill mold spores?
I'm also pretty religious about cleaning gutters. For an atheist.
Yes the fog was supposed to kill existing spores and dry to a microscopically "spiky" texture that killed spores for a while after application.
In reply to OHSCrifle :
What kind of ductwork do you have? Mine has the fiberglass insulation on the INSIDE, and i'm wondering if that's what is causing the sniffles in my house. I too had an air quality study done and they found no mold issues.
In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
Mixed bag. Mostly metal duct main trunks but some flex duct branches. The transition plenum right at the air handler may be duct board - need to check that.
In reply to dculberson:
I googled that fogging product and didn't find anything. How certain are you about the name?
In reply to OHSCrifle :
I must have the number wrong. Modec has an mdf-500 that I see listed as a fogging spray on some sites and a topical foam on others. I would guess that's it and it's available in different forms maybe?
In reply to dculberson :
Looks like the mdf-500 can be applied either as a foam or fog. That must be it.
pheller
UltimaDork
1/24/23 11:48 a.m.
What's a good testing kit?
Flynlow (FS) said:
In reply to OHSCrifle :
What kind of ductwork do you have? Mine has the fiberglass insulation on the INSIDE, and i'm wondering if that's what is causing the sniffles in my house. I too had an air quality study done and they found no mold issues.
My friend is a commercial sheet metal guy. He has told me about opening up large ducts lined with Owens Corning rigid fiberglass panels 703 and the insulation was completely eroded away in elbows because of the air turbulence in those areas. Nasty stuff.
You need three things for mold to grow: mold spores, food for the mold, and moisture. Mold can eat paper, wood, or just about anything organic, so the food is a given. And the spores are everywhere too. So the only way to stop mold for good is to control the moisture.
Depending on how much mold you already have, though, you may need to treat or remove what's already there. But get the moisture under control, or it will come back.
VolvoHeretic said:
Flynlow (FS) said:
In reply to OHSCrifle :
What kind of ductwork do you have? Mine has the fiberglass insulation on the INSIDE, and i'm wondering if that's what is causing the sniffles in my house. I too had an air quality study done and they found no mold issues.
My friend is a commercial sheet metal guy. He has told me about opening up large ducts lined with Owens Corning rigid fiberglass panels 703 and the insulation was completely eroded away in elbows because of the air turbulence in those areas. Nasty stuff.
Year ago I used to perform asbestos inspections of buildings. Any time I had to inspect a building with acoustical ceiling tile, I would come down with almost flu-like symptoms. I finally convinced myself it was from popping my head up above ceiling tile. Back then, fiberglass was considered harmless, as opposed to the nasty asbestos. I usually wore a respirator unless I was in an office building with a bunch of womens.
MadScientistMatt said:
You need three things for mold to grow: mold spores, food for the mold, and moisture. Mold can eat paper, wood, or just about anything organic, so the food is a given. And the spores are everywhere too. So the only way to stop mold for good is to control the moisture.
Depending on how much mold you already have, though, you may need to treat or remove what's already there. But get the moisture under control, or it will come back.
OHSCrifle, how modern is your house? Is it air tight? Maybe you need an air to air heat exchanger? My poorly insulated 1950 house with forced air heat, but with no cold air returns in the finished basement used to have mold growing on the cheap crappy paint on the basement drywall until just last year when I finally cut in a couple of cold air returns into the furnace return trunk line. I had a de-humidifier running 24/7/365 along with a box fan to stur up the air downstairs plus a large room humidifier upstair in the winter going through 1.5 gallons per day.
VolvoHeretic said:
MadScientistMatt said:
You need three things for mold to grow: mold spores, food for the mold, and moisture. Mold can eat paper, wood, or just about anything organic, so the food is a given. And the spores are everywhere too. So the only way to stop mold for good is to control the moisture.
Depending on how much mold you already have, though, you may need to treat or remove what's already there. But get the moisture under control, or it will come back.
OHSCrifle, how modern is your house? Is it air tight? Maybe you need an air to air heat exchanger? My poorly insulated 1950 house with forced air heat, but with no cold air returns in the finished basement used to have mold growing on the cheap crappy paint on the basement drywall until just last year when I finally cut in a couple of cold air returns into the furnace return trunk line. I had a de-humidifier running 24/7/365 along with a box fan to stur up the air downstairs plus a large room humidifier upstair in the winter going through 1.5 gallons per day.
It's a 1977 brick ranch on a full basement. A more accurate description would be "air loose".
And thus the can of worms has been opened. Over the years I have noticed one wall in my pantry that backs up to my garage that I suspect has some water damage.. and mold inside. The perpendicular wall backs up to the front porch and it too is rather suspect.
Floor plan, "because architect":
There is peeling paint on the garage facing wall, near the corner. (Note: We moved the laundry to the basement to create a walk-in pantry. The berkeleying architect never updated the floor plan).
Tonight we relocated the wire pantry shelves to a more conspicuous place. Hopefully this creates sufficient pressure to move quickly with what's next...
...because this weekend I'm going to FAFO. Drywall coming out. I suspect the stud framing behind that sketchy peeling paint is full of all sorts of past termite damage,wet insulation, probably lots of bugs and mold because the same wall at the front porch was damaged by the concrete driveway crew...
and the bottom plate stud in the front corner was found to be deteriorated. And sitting on no footing. I also noticed long ago that brick veneer on my house doesn't have any weep holes or vents so any water that hits the porch floor and gets to the wall soaks in and sits..
I've been dreading this can of worms but if it's making us all sick it's time to fix it.
Wish me luck.
Good luck. Do I see 8" of missing foundation wall in the corner of the garage under the concrete block? I wonder how you will fix that? You better update your foundation plan while your correcting your laundry room.
VolvoHeretic said:
Good luck. Do I see 8" of missing foundation wall in the corner of the garage under the concrete block? I wonder how you will fix that? You better update your foundation plan while your correcting your laundry room.
You sure do. The brick veneer sat.. on dirt. When I had my driveway replaced part of the veneer fell off the front wall.
The concrete crew called in the boss to tell me what happened. He seemed quite surprised that I didn't freak out. I didn't freak out because he had a truck full of concrete, some form boards and rebar. So fifteen minutes later it was rebuilt far stronger than it all began.
The front corner brick sits on concrete now. And I asked for a favor from the owner of a masonry contractor who works on lots of my commercial projects. Now I will continue to recommend them.
when the mortar cured and dried the color matches pretty well.
My plan is to open up the wall from the pantry(laundry room) side and see what it looks like. I expect to end up re framing that wall entirely. The garage side has T1-11 plywood that will likely come off.
I'm not at all sure how to replace a stud wall and exterior sheathing (and brick ties, felt, etc) while leaving brick veneer intact.
...one way to find out.
If the garage roof sits on that wall, build a temporary wall a couple of feet into the garage with the studs at least 1/4" longer than needed and bend them into place to take some weight off of the wall. Use a hydraulic jack under a 4x4 post on the bottom plate next to where you want to install a stud and lift the roof up enough to put in the temporary stud.
I would only remove the garage bottom plate by cutting it up into tiny pieces with a sawsall, replace the plate and add new studs next to the existing ones after spraying everything down with strong diluted bleach. Wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. I am assuming that only the bottom of the wall would be rotted.
VolvoHeretic said:
If the garage roof sits on that wall, build a temporary wall a couple of feet into the garage with the studs at least 1/4" longer than needed and bend them into place to take some weight off of the wall. Use a hydraulic jack under a 4x4 post on the bottom plate next to where you want to install a stud and lift the roof up enough to put in the temporary stud.
I would only remove the garage bottom plate by cutting it up into tiny pieces with a sawsall, replace the plate and add new studs next to the existing ones after spraying everything down with strong diluted bleach. Wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. I am assuming that only the bottom of the wall would be rotted.
That sounds like a good plan.. and optimistic (that only the bottom plate is bad). Hope you're right!!
I have 10 Ellis post jacks that are made for lifting framing - I used them to raise saggy 1st floor framing while I replaced some load bearing walls in the basement a few years back (to compensate for basement floor settlement).
Great recommendation on the PPE. Thanks again.
Yes, we are hoping the top plates aren't rotted. The studs don't matter how rotted they are as long as they are holding onto the sheathing and the brick veneer. The new studs will stabilize the rotted ones after everything has been nailed off and they can stay in place once they are sterilized.
I don't have a ton to add that hasn't already been said. I will say that YES, your mold can make you sick. Even if you're not specifically getting infections from it or sensitive to it, when you breathe it in your body's immune system has to do something with it. Constantly breathing mold means your body is intentionally being overworked in one or more of its systems. It might never show symptoms and you might die at 142 of a heart attack with a prostitute, or it may cause more immediate effects.
I am (or at least was when I was a kid) rather violently allergic to Penicillin. Other molds don't tend to bother me, at least not acutely, but I intend to do something about the mold in my basement. It's the same reason I drink filtered water from the fridge dispenser instead of the tap. I'm sure the tap water is fine, but it can't hurt to drink something cleaner. Better than learning when I'm 75 that the water I drank for 50 years is what caused my liver to explode. The house was built in 1900 and the basement was added under an addition in the 40s. It gets damp every time it rains and the dehumidifier has trouble keeping up.
The product that Dculberson is talking about (Modec/MDF stuff) is available in a similar over-the-counter product at the hammer store under the name Concrobium. Blue and green label. If you have one near you with a rental department they also rent a mold fogger. You pour the concrobium in the hopper, plug it in, and aim it at each wall, nook, cranny, crawlspace, whatever for about 15 minutes each. Concrobium (and similar products) use a salt dissolved in water. When it dries, the salts form microscopic crystals that crush spores and prevent new ones from living if they come in contact with it. It sometimes leaves a white, chalky residue on the walls, but you can vacuum it off and there will be plenty left in the pores of the surface. I remember (when I worked at HD) I went to a trade show and the Concrobium booth had dozens of shots of the stuff lined up in shot glasses for people to drink because it's non-toxic. Their banner said "Works great, tastes like s**t." I did not do a shot, but I admit I did taste a drop on my finger. It does, indeed, taste like s**t
You can also apply it in a spray bottle, but the fog is more effective since it creeps up in walls and really gets hard to reach places.
We did mom and dad's basement and she claims her breathing is way better. It certainly got rid of the mold smell. I would also consider (if you don't already have) a static air filter addition to your duct work. It's basically a grid that gets charged with static and actively attracts dust and spores instead of passively filtering.
Did the garage floor slope to the garage door or was it flat? Do you think that the damage in that corner is from water dripping off of your car and running over to the wall? Or from the roof at what maybe is a valley?
VolvoHeretic said:
Did the garage floor slope to the garage door or was it flat? Do you think that the damage in that corner is from water dripping off of your car and running over to the wall? Or from the roof at what maybe is a valley?
The garage floor does slope toward the door. The water damage is definitely from outside - from leaves sitting (over the years prior to my ownership) in the valley above.
This photo was shot the day I had a 40" oak tree cut down. That big tree rained acorns, seed pods and leaves on the roof and this front valley was constantly full. Since I bought the house and replaced the roof soon after, I'm up on this roof several times per year clearing the gutters.
But the previous owner wasn't so diligent and this water damage has been present for a long time. I just never connected the dots that it could be making us sick.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks Curtis. This will definitely be part of the remediation plan.
One tool that might be handy when you're doing that work is an oscillating multitool. If you've never used one it is amazing for making straight plunge cuts into wood. That way you're not chopping into what's left of your sheathing with the sawzall.
Do the mold fogging once you've got the wall opened up. You can fog the whole house if you want to that would reduce the spores in the whole place. The Modec stuff seems to be available online looked like $180 for four gallons. Rent a fogger and away you go! I'd recommend some time out of the house for stuff to dry one source online said 8 hours.
