As the topic states, I have some sump basin install questions.
As the topic states, I have some sump basin install questions.
Honestly, unless its some super esoteric question this one is probably a decent place to start. Wide enough knowledge base that its worth giving it a shot.
Ok, here goes!
This room is on the outside of my foundation wall. This was once a basement access through an exterior Door. Water is coming up the clay tile perimeter drain. I have the hole off-set because I'm assuming the footer would be in the way of me digging deep enough for the basin. Am I correct in thinking this? If this location is acceptable, Will I be able to cut the clay pipe and run it into the basin this close to the edge of the basin? What is the best way to cut the clay tile ? Sawzall with mason blade?
I was originally going to have someone do this project but $3500 I was quoted it's just not feasible.
You could build the basin deeper than the existing pipe and just let the pipe overflow into the basin without cutting the pipe off. Just a thought. Then have a large grate mounted at floor level.
If you want to cut the pipe I would dig around it wide enough to get a side grinder in there with a concrete blade.
A Home Depot rental concrete saw will afford you the ability to create a nice square hole in the floor that you can then build or purchase a grate for. Wear a good respirator ! ($40 at Home Depot and well worth it)
I'm thinking you can do the whole job for Less than $400.
Also, some landscape supply companies have drain boxes that come with grates that you could just fab to drop in there...
In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :
I have A radon mitigation system in the basement so I want to make this a sealed system.
The hole that you see there took about a half hour with a chisel and hammer. I have since made the whole more symmetrical.
My main concern is when I cut the clay pipe, will the remaining pipe in the ground collapse and block off the flow of water? Once I cut the clay pipe how do I Connect it to the sump basin. Do I have to connect it to the basin or can I let it dump in the pit and into holes on the side of the basin?
Where does the clay pipe go today (where is the system low point)? It looks like it's either and elbow or a T oriented vertically? Our house has a similar outside space and it's drain is tied into the footer drain and plumbed with clay pipe to a interior sump.
Your footer is likely only 4-6" wider then the block wall.
I'm imagining you have a clay line across your new hole, and want to cut that line and tie it into a sump (I'm assuming with a sump pump). As long as you cut the clay tiles square they should not be any more likely to collapse then they are today. If you then concrete around the sump entrance it will be supported after it's cut. Just about any masonry tools will cut clay tile but they can be quite brittle and can make very sharp edges when cut. Some are more of a ceramic consistency and can create very hazardous edges so glove up and wear a respirator/mask.
You will want your clay pipe protruding into the basin so water falls out the end of a pipe into the basis otherwise it will saturate the area around the basin and could erode it slowly.
Good luck. That project looks not fun.
My father had a Handyman Encyclopedia when I was growing up. You may not open it for nine years but when you have to splice wires, make a sump pump, figure out plumbing; the answer is in there.
When our son bought a house I gave him my dad's encyclopedia but I also got him a subscription to their monthly magazine. It's like $9/year. He keeps them in a binder in the basement. =~ )
Building a she-shed? You just don't know it yet ....
Youtube is your friend. FF to 10 minutes or so. In lieu of concrete, I would go with gravel around the tub, then a concrete top once you see it works well.
Bob Villa says .....
I put in two sumps a couple of years ago and trenched under my footing for two window well drains I am currently installing into the bottom of the new egress windows which I am going to put a drain in the concrete floor of them. You need to dig down enough to install a sealed sump pit plus a few inches of 5/8" rock. I used a 3/8" hammer drill to drill a million holes 3" wider than the sump lip. There has to be almost as much volume of hole vs concrete and then you can easily sledge hammer a nice almost clean hole.
The deeper sump pit you get, the less often it cycles. I put about 6" under the sump and hung the sump up with 2x2s from the lid attachment nuts. You should cut the clay tile with that angle grinder with just enough clearance so that after in place the sump in the hole and you can slide a rubber pipe connector ( Legend Valve™ 4" Cast Iron No-Hub Flexible Coupling) over the clay pipe, tighten the clamp and then add a 4" PVC pipe extension after you place the sump and then be able to tighten the other half of the clamp. Then pour in your rock, it is self settling. You would have already capped off your floor drain on the other side of the sump. Then tape off your lid flange and place your concrete. Make sure you use high strength Quik Crete and have at least 6" of depth. The PVC only has to penetrated the sump 2 or 3 inches.
Digging a hole like you need that close to the footing corner is scary, make sure you don't over excavate. Use a Tile Spade and eventually a tiny garden shovel laying down on your stomach. I like to use a cheap large SS mixing bowl to scoop out the loose dirt. If there is a lot of water, I use a colander to let the water out. I also used a 2" garden drill to loosen up the dirt a year after my water table rose and flooded my basement with 1" of water because of course, there was a dam around my floor drain when they poured it as it always is. The first hole I drilled, a 6" stream of water squirted out of the hole.
Will you will be plumbing the sump outside somewhere or are just wanting to pump it into the existing drain? If in the drain, Roto-Rooter it out now and hook the pump discharge to a check valve and then into the drain with the same rubber connectors.
Edit: Where is the main sewer line in relation to your floor drain?
Edit 2: That floor drain must have a trap under it and the clay tile must enter the sewer somewhere else? Or maybe not, just an access for the 4" pipe which needs a plug? I meant is that just a cleanout?
Thank you for all your help on this project. I watched probably far too many YouTube videos on how to install a sump pump before I began. I took a few more pictures to show the layout of the clay pipe.
The bottom of this pipe is open to the ground. So the pipe runs east and west I'm assuming around the perimeter of the house and then this open portion in the floor drains directly down into dirt.
I believe the water that is coming out of this pipe is leaking down from a failed drain that is in the concrete slab in front of the garage.
I'm a little concerned this pipe might be cemented into the footer since it's so close to the wall. I might have to elongate the hole at the bottom in order to get the pipe completely cut.
I bought this basin from Home Depot. It's considerably heavier and has a nice flange of the top for radon cover. Is this flange supposed to sit on top of my existing concrete or should it be level with the floor?
Edit: I am planning on running a drain pipe outside somewhere onto the ground or possibly into a downspout that I have replaced with solid pipe which drains away from the house.
The top of the lip is flush with the top of the concrete. Screw 2 straight 2x2s to span across the top of slab (TOS) attached through those lid nuts with longer bolts. Does that pipe continue to the sewer line or is that another feed, what's it smell like?
I've seen those tiles somewhere else before. Oh yah, they're In my basement. Around 1950?
In reply to 914Driver :
Off topic, but the Handyman Encyclopedia looks ridiculously cool, but I don't even own a bookshelf anymore.
VolvoHeretic said:The top of the lip is flush with the top of the concrete. Screw 2 straight 2x2s to span across the top of slab (TOS) attached through those lid nuts with longer bolts. Does that pipe continue to the sewer line or is that another feed, what's it smell like?
I've seen those tiles somewhere else before. Oh yah, they're In my basement. Around 1950?
House was built in 1952. No smell. Definitely not sewage. Septic line exits at the far opposite corner of the house. Left of this room is another small room with steps that led to the outside prior the addition to the back of the house. The two are separated by a newer block wall
Edit: I hate those floor tiles. I don't get why you would put tiles on the basement floor. Oh yeah, I had them tested they are asbestos tiles.
In reply to 914Driver :
My dad had several old home repair Encyclopedias that I wish I had saved. Electrical, plumbing, building a shed etc. I wish I had saved them but my dad was a pack rat and there's so many things that we need to sort through when he passed they got lost in the mix.
rustybugkiller saEdit: I hate those floor tiles. I don't get why you would put tiles on the basement floor. Oh yeah, I had them tested they are asbestos tiles.
Yes they are, and the adhesive is a tar based crap that is impossible to remove and will stain any sheet linoleum you put over it. The tiles pop easily enough with a flatbar, and can be handled after you literally flood the floor with water as you peal them up, but I had to use a cup wire wheel on a side grinder to smear off the thick stuff and use paint thinner to dissolve the rest and wipe it up with paper towels in the bathroom I redid. I can't imagine doing the whole basement. Make sure you turn off all of your pilot lights before attempting and wear a respirator and lots of fans blowing through any windows. The only other way I can think of to remove that goop would be to use a water/sand blaster and shop vac after covering all of the walls with plastic sheeting.
It appears the clay pipe is cemented in the edge of the footer. Not sure where to go from here.
My nephew (home builder) has a contractor he uses that I'm hoping will be able to assist me.
You're going to have to center the sump pit over the clay pipe by enlarging the concrete hole down in you photo. Move the sump farther away from the footing so you have more room to cut off the clay pipe. It is probably a good thing that the pipe is encased in concrete so it doesn't shift. I would lay the pit upside down on the concrete and trace a line around it, then draw another circle 3 or 4" outside that for your drill and cut line.
Does your house have short 7 foot or so basement walls? Is the slab thin over the footing so that there is only a couple of inches of concrete over the footing and then it drapes over the footing down to the usual 4" slab thickness?
They make cheap 4.5" diamond masonry grinder blades that would cut through that tile like butter. 4-1/2 in. Turbo Diamond Blade-Home Depot
If you cut a 2" strip of cardboard from something like a cereal box you can wrap it around the pipe and with the laps lined up to each other, draw a perfectly square cut line around the pipe.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
Thanks again for the reply!
Yes my walls are seven foot high and the concrete floor that I broke through was only about 2-3" thick. This was an exterior access to the basement which was eliminated when the addition was added by the previous owner.
There is an old cemented well cap at the top portion of the picture so I am somewhat limited by how far I can move it from the footer. But I do have enough room to move the basin away from the clay pipe a few more inches.
If I did this and broke out the one side of the clay tile I could easily fit the basin here. However, The only way I could run an extension from the clay pipe into the basin would be if I put a pipe inside the clay pipe instead of around the outside. If this makes sense.
Ok, I see now. Maybe you want to put a horizontal tee where the that clay down pipe tee is now and move the sump farther into that room beyond connected with just one pipe?
That last pic shows about how far I can move it away from the clay pipe.
My finger is on the old cement filled well.
Ok, I drew up a tee fitting setup first and then two 45" fittings setup. These are just ideas for discussion only. 
The elbos are so the pipe fits into the sump at a more perpendicular angel and the penetration hole won't have to be so oblong. They come in 30, 45, and 60 degrees depending on witch one fits best. If there is even room to put all of that on the ends of the clay pipe.
Nice diagrams! That would work if I could get around the perimeter of the clay pipe. With the one side of the clay pipe imbedded into cement, I won't be able to get the coupler on. I'm only able to cut through about half the pipe.
I just found this:
Would I be able to face cut the clay pipe and use the donut inside the clay to transfer to pvc?
I have seen probably 1 million square feet of your floor tile while inspecting schools for asbestos back in the 80s. It was a VERY popular tile in the 50s. 99.9% of the time black mastic contains asbestos as well. You can remove tile in wholes pieces using a good heat gun. The mastic can be removed with a solvent. In the beginning it was a chemical called Cold Wash and was used to clean bilges of ships. Later the asbestos abatement people found out about it and renamed it and jacked the price up. There was later citrus based solvent that was less hazardous, but we got more complaints from building tenants than with the Cold Wash because of the smell.
spitfirebill said:I have seen probably 1 million square feet of your floor tile while inspecting schools for asbestos back in the 80s. It was a VERY popular tile in the 50s. 99.9% of the time black mastic contains asbestos as well. You can remove tile in wholes pieces using a good heat gun. The mastic can be removed with a solvent. In the beginning it was a chemical called Cold Wash and was used to clean bilges of ships. Later the asbestos abatement people found out about it and renamed it and jacked the price up. There was later citrus based solvent that was less hazardous, but we got more complaints from building tenants than with the Cold Wash because of the smell.
The mastic was tested but asbestos was not found it was only in the tiles. When I tore up my kitchen floor, buried underneath was similar tiles with the exception of the color. They were red and green. I was sure those were going to be asbestos laden. Turned out neither the tiles nor the mastic contained any asbestos.
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