Is this berking MA? (hypo-theoretical ethics & morals question)

Today's TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WHAT WOULD YOU DO question of the day....

Let's say a person is interested in a vehicle that resides in that bastion of democracy know as MAssachussets. (really? 5 S's? You named it something with 5 S's back when S's looked like F's and no one know how to read or write anyway? Did you foresee Mississippi's eventual existence and want to preemptively one-up them at something?)

Our hypothetical person, let's call him Mr. Theoretic, does not reside in MA. While reading MA's rules, Mr. T notices that if he buys and takes possession of the title and car in MA he would owe The Fightin' Fifth state in the Union money for their "use tax", which reads like so:

Motor Vehicle Purchases in Massachusetts by Nonresidents

If a nonresident of Massachusetts purchases a motor vehicle in Massachusetts and takes title to and/or possession of the vehicle in Massachusetts, the sale is subject to the Massachusetts sales/use tax irrespective of whether the nonresident intends to use the motor vehicle within or outside Massachusetts.

So Mr. T ponders the use of the word "in". He wonders if someone starts a test-drive of a vehicle in MA and winds up in another state before he decides to buy the car. At the same theoretical moment that he hypothetically decides to purchase the car - takes "mental ownership" as they say on the car lot - he realizes he accidentally left the envelope with the purchase money at the same place he originally started his test-drive! Mr. T calls the private-party owner of the car to let him know he wants the car & would Mr. Private Party please check between the couch cushions to see if T's envelope was there........

Soooooooooooo........ Did this hypothetical deal require Mr. T pay MA? Or can he happily, hypothetically drive to his home state and register the vehicle/rend unto Caesar in his home state?

While my original question concerned berking MA (or not), the important question would be: Would MA come after Mr. Private Party somehow? Could this somehow blow back and inconvenience Mr. Private Party?

Is anyone here lucky enough to live in MA, who has also sold a car to someone who isn't lucky enough to live in MA & also is willing to share their experience in how they handled this issue?

Why don't they just rename the place Masachusets & save us all some time?

so... if you buy a car in mass.. and register it in another state, you still owe them a "use tax"?

Funny, I bought my Ti in Mass, sent the guy the money, got the title and plates here in NJ, got a ride up there and drove it back... never had to worry about their "use tax"

Hypothetically, if someone had purchased two vehicles in that awful place, for the sake of argument we will refer to them as a Jeep and a Miata, and, being unaware of this silly law, registered these two vehicles, which, hypothetically, he no longer owns, in a much better place, like Connecticut, would that hypothetical super cool guy owe hypothetical back taxes to the stupid place?

All I know is, Mr. Hypothetical, Mr. Theoretic and Mr. Private Party walk into a bar...and it's not in Massachussets.

mad: Mr. Theoretical lives in PA - PENNDOT won't issue/transfer plate if car isn't present. Mr. t's wife won't ever move, even hypothetically.

Woody & mad: Were your cars from private sellers and did they ever contact you about use tax or blowback from MA?

Remember that Taxachussets doesn't recognize paper plates from other states as well, so the hypothetical purchaser would have to deal with the plate issue too.

I know that CT has or had a property or use tax on cars that military members didn't have to pay. I know that because several years after I left CT I got a letter from the state asking for many years of back fees/taxes on the car we had purchased there and immediately titled and registered in SD. It seems that my wife was not exempt from the fee/tax and since her name was on the title too they wanted their $ based on the sale paperwork and CT paper plates. Luckily the ink had just dried on the divorce papers...

Massachusetts only has four esses.

In reply to Will: Still one too many.

How do Massachusettians return their plate if they don't need it any more?

Massachusettonians have 7 days to put their plate on the next vehicle, right?

Do Massachusetters pay annual registration fees as well as the use tax upon sale?

EastCoastMojo wrote: All I know is, Mr. Hypothetical, Mr. Theoretic and Mr. Private Party walk into a bar...and it's not in Massachussets.

And hopefully it's not in NJ either

They don't call it TAXachussets without reason.

How far is it from the seller's house to the state line? I mean, this is New England, all the states are tiny, right? :)

Hypothetically, I might ask the seller how much of a convenience fee they would require to meet you with the car and title in hand just beyond the southern or western Maasssachoossetttss state line.

I don't see much difference between buying the car 2 feet across the stateline and saying you bought it 2 feet across the stateline. No way to prove or disprove, and I don't think either are immoral in this situation.

I live in Massachusetts (4 S' by my count), and have sold cars out of state before. Not one of them has paid anything to MA DOT for these sales. You will have a signed MA title from EbonyandIvory. Isn't that good enough for PennDOT? MA will have no idea you bought the car, and the seller will not be liable for any taxes. If it is registered in his name (I don't think it is) he would be liable to return the plates, and list it as sold. They don't ask you who you sold it to or even care for that matter. If it was another resident of the commonwealth they will get their money when the second party re-titles/registers the car in MA, but otherwise they got their money from the seller when he titled the car in the first place.If you lived in MA, and were to register it and title it in MA again you would be liable to pay sales tax and a new title fee, but being s resident in another state you are not liable for this. Taxachusetts has some weird laws when it comes to registering vehicle, but I don't see this as an issue for you as they don't care when a car leaves the commonwealth. With all this said you will have to figure out how to get it home without plates as MA doesn't issue temp plates, and I doubt he has the car registered so you can't even "borrow" his plates temporarily to get it home, and mail them back to him (I've done this in the past).

Again I will state this. The commonwealth cannot collect a tax on a non-resident, and I don't know that they will even know or care that you bought the car in MA, and brought it out of the state. They have no way of knowing where the car went. They can only collect taxes when someone wants to title the car in their name in MA. You will have a clear title in the sellers name signed over to you. That should be good enough for just about any state in the union, and I know it is good enough in this bastion of democracy as you put it. Lets look at it from the other side. If I were to buy in PA, and had a clear title in the seller name from PA I could bring it to the DMV in MA and get it titled and registered in MA by paying sales tax equal to the sale price or book value whichever is higher, and move along. MA wouldn't ask me if I paid tax in PA. They don't care about that. PA shouldn't care whether you paid any sort of tax in MA. You have title, and bill of sale. Pay your tax in PA if applicable, and any fees and move along. Heck if I were to buy a car in MA and then eventually title in again in my home state the DMV wouldn't even know when the sale took place aside from if the title from MA seller 1 to MA buyer 2 was dated, or by the bill of sale(easily date changed by the way). The seller could return plates, and be free of the yearly excise tax, and the new buyer still wouldn't be liable for any tax as he hasn't tried titling it in his/her name yet. The car is theoretically in limbo, and the state doesn't care as it isn't in use, or shouldn't be at least in their state.

You're over thinking this. Buy the car, figure out how to get it transported legally or otherwise to PA, and enjoy. Forget what MA may want, they have no idea where the car is going, and can't collect a tax from a Non-resident.

It's called "government overreach" and Massachussets is a strong proponent.

Mr. T pities da fool who would pay sales tax on a Massachusetts car bought outside the state!

My wife is a mobile notary.

SC has a tax cap of $300 for the sale of vehicles. She notarizes the sale of 4-5 planes a year. People fly in, do the sale, and fly out. She makes more than the state does.

I live in PA. I bought a car in MA with a MA title. Trailered it home, had the VIN inspection to register it in PA and paid PA tax and registration. Nothing bad happened.

How will they know where the exchange took place? This seems one of those BS rules like Louisiana had that if I bought a big screen TV in Mississippi I had to pay tax on it in Louisiana. Riiiiiigggggghhhhhhtttttttt.

etifosi wrote: mad: Mr. Theoretical lives in PA - PENNDOT won't issue/transfer plate if car isn't present. Mr. t's wife won't ever move, even hypothetically.

Say what? I have multiple cars registered in PA. Over 20 during my lifetime. I can count on one hand the times the tag place actually saw the car/truck in person while doing the registration (they were bought at dealers who do the registration in-house). Hell... they don't even require pictures for Classic or Antique registration anymore. All you need is the signed title and cash/checks to pay the fees. I just did this last year with my Spitfire.

While there are many things about PennDOT that make owning a car a PITA (yearly inspections...), the vehicle registration process is dead-easy. Mainly because they are private franchises (which are everywhere) and you have essentially no contact with the State.

etifosi wrote: Woody & mad: Were your cars from private sellers and did they ever contact you about use tax or blowback from MA?

Hey, slow down pal, I never said that I bought two vehicles in Massachusetts and then registered them in Connecticut....

Now, if I had done something like that, I would have gone through private parties on both occasions and I'm pretty sure that I'd never hear another word from the Commonwealth again.

You would think that a place like Massachusetts would be a little more sensitive to the whole taxation without representation thing.

mad_machine wrote: so... if you buy a car in mass.. and register it in another state, you still owe them a "use tax"? Funny, I bought my Ti in Mass, sent the guy the money, got the title and plates here in NJ, got a ride up there and drove it back... never had to worry about their "use tax"

I hypothetically bought a miata in Boston not too long ago. Hypothetically, I didn't pay the state of MA one red cent.