IT Peoples: A career in IT?

Since GRM has the most amazing people and the largest cross section of experience on everything; I figure I'd turn to you guys for advice.

Just a warning, this post will probably turn into a novel.

Sooo, to start off, I separated from the Air Force in March 2017 after 15 years of service. I was an electronics technician (2E2X1 and then 3D172, Cyber Transport). I worked on everything from Cold War era strategic comm systems to cutting edge, everything-over-IP tactical networks. However, I never sought out a degree because I was short sighted (I'm going to do 20 and retire!).

Now, I'm trying to get my footing again. I work at an auto parts store making $11/hr and I had to move back in with my folks. So a less than ideal situation. I also despise being back in my hometown. Everybody I once knew is long gone and well, I'll call it a "blue collar paradise" to be respectful.

I've applied to a few IT jobs that pay more than $11/hr (but not by much!) only to be turned away by my lack of a degree.

There in lies the rub: I have a decent amount of experience but no degree. I do have a Security+ certificate but that doesn't amount to much. I worked a lot of Cisco based networking, Windows user admin/Active Directory, Cisco Unified Call Manager/VOIP administration and some satellite network management.

I do have my Post 9/11 GI Bill which I have not touched. I would love to go to school but I have so much debt that I'd have to work in addition to going to school, just to stay afloat financially.

Basically, I really dropped the ball when I planned on getting out of the military. I was making $60k a year and I'd like to get back to that level (or more) but I feel like I'm stuck here.

There is nothing keeping me here so I'd have no issues with moving to the other side of the country for a decent paying job. Ideally, I'd like to work for a federal agency so I could continue to work towards a federal retirement. I'd really not want to throw away those 15 years of my life.

So I guess my question(s) is this:

How do I make myself more marketable? Does having a degree really matter in the real world? I'd like to get some refresher training on Cisco stuff but holy crap is that expensive ($3800 for a CUCM course!).

I'd love to hear your advice and experiences GRM. Thanks in advance!

I would say experience trumps paper certificates. Cisco is still king, but more and more are moving away.    They have a subbranch named "meraki" that blows the IOS stuff out of the water.

I would recommend finding IT networking groups in town and go from there.

There are online degrees from accredited public colleges that you can do on your own time.  A degree does carry weight.  Not exactly sure why; you certainly don't learn anything useful.  More of a "hey, this guy has a degree in something, I have a degree in something else, he must be OK.  He made it."   Today, a Bachelor's degree is like High School used to be.  Anyway, if you could swing it on your GI bill, that would be worth it. 

Your debt issues point to decision making problems.  Just an observation.

OK, so, 5 more years in the USAF?  I take it you had enough of that phun.  Or, start applying to jobs in the next biggest town.  The town you describe sounds severely limited in options. 

Networking stuff is not my area.  I know how to put a connector on the end of the cable and plug it in and that's about it.  I do SQL.  VSQL these days, but a flavor of SQL none-the-less.  I throw a hundred million rows of data around like tossing a pizza crust.  We have network guys to hook it all together.  I have no idea if they have degrees or not, but given that everyone does today, probably so.  Without one, I would not say you were shot out of the water, but you have to be pretty good at it and/or know someone that knows your skills.  Pick up some books.  Surely there's a buttload of books on Cisco stuff. 

I agree regarding Grtechguys's comment about experience - I would, wouldn't I, after almost 30 years in software development and only having parts of a degree - but I noticed that there are a whole bunch of employers out there these days that somehow seem to think that a degree bestows a universal degree of competence on people. While I'm a big fan of education I'm not always a big fan of degrees as a bar for entry (interviewed lots and lots of recent grads and my take was always that the ones who would be successful were the ones that would've made it without a degree). Typical example is one of my BiLs who blew $30k-ish on an MS in Computer Security, but somehow never has all the right other bits of paper according to prospective employers and works at Home Depot. And no, not in the IT department. So if you want to get a degree because *you* want to get a degree in something you're interested in, by all means do so, but it's not a necessity IMHO and I've seen it go wrong for too many people who got degrees as a means of chasing the Benjamins.

And after this depressing interlude, here's my take on this:

• How many small companies do you think you can find in a 50 mile radius that can't afford a full time IT person, but need someone to help out both in crisis situations and regular maintenance - making sure that the network is reasonably secure, Windows is patched monthly, they don't get screwed too badly by their ISP and all that jazz. If you can find enough companies you can do that for to fill 3 days of the week at a reasonable rate, you got yourself a business.
• With your experience I'd look at a different level of IT position - the ones that don't pay very much are usually entry level and you don't sound entry level to me.

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=08cc94b214c1dc38&from=serp

we need people like you and we pay 100% for school, while you work. 

https://www.hirepurpose.com/companies/utc-aerospace-systems

we got more orders than we can handle and are hiring like crazy. 

In IT a degree doesn't get you a job, it gets you past the stupid HR check list. With your past military experience you should be able to find a govt contracting job where they love to hire veterans.  I will say iirc while the govt loves to hire veterans, they do usually require a degree.  Here is a list of State of Idaho IT Jobs, most dont require a degree and pay reasonably well. https://labor.idaho.gov/DHR/ATS/StateJobs/CurrentOpenings.aspx?category=5  Most state govts love to hire veterans.  Just be aware if Idaho is anything like NC with hiring expect 6 months waiting to hear back at a minimum.

In reply to stanger_missle :

You absolutely have to have a degree to get to the better paying jobs in IT .  if you want real pay go for a job in security. 

 Yes you can get a decent paying gig but not on your own. You have to use a head hunter!!  They will take 1/3 to 1/2 of your paycheck but get you those $30-40 hr jobs that lead to full time hiring.  

Different head hunters have different deals. Some offer great benefits. While others offer nothing and don’t even try to find you a new contract when yours expires. 

Sorry you really can’t shop headhunters.  They have the inside track to the person actually doing the hiring.  It may be a corporate relationship or a personal one or whatever.  

Trying to go through HR is an absolute waste of time unless it’s a real low wage entry level position they can’t fill any other way. Even then the delays and nonsense before you pull your first paycheck make you want to pull your hair out. 

Try to work from home. A fair number of IT jobs are like that. And it saves you the commute time, cost and dressing. Etc.   but you have to have the self discipline to stay on task and not waste time shopping, watching junk etc.  They know to the second what you are doing, ie working or not.  

I can’t help with the degree question, but I can say that in Columbus Ohio, IT people are extremely in demand. We have three web developers in our building and they’re often hiring. There’s just so much done online and with computers now that any tech worth his salt should be able to get a job. Good luck! 

I am curious. What feedback have gotten from your applications? Are you you being specifically told that it the lack of a degree that is reason for not getting selected?

I agree with mrchaos. A degree often is necessary just because you have to clear the HR bar. Lots of IT jobs in non-IT companies, and the HR is not IT specific. 

The degree itself doesn't matter that much however, the experience and interview do. I would be willing to bet your experience alone would get you plenty of interviews. Even an associate's might get you past the 'degree' requirement.

Also I like the small business idea. You will basically just be a Google search repeater (customers will ask ridiculous questions that may or may not have anything to do with IT, and you will have to Google it for them) much of the time; but just like cars, as long as you have confidence there is little that hasn't already been done well and documented.

frenchyd said:

In reply to stanger_missle :

You absolutely have to have a degree to get to the better paying jobs in IT .

Sorry, but you don't. Yes, it helps, but there are plenty of people out there making very reasonable incomes who don't have a degree or one that isn't relevant.

 if you want real pay go for a job in security. 

Depends if you have a knack for it or not. Yes, potentially on average it pays pretty well, but you can find enough different niches in IT that pay really, really well if you have both aptitude and experience. The people I know who have lastest longest in IT are those who chose a field they had an aptitude for and then got really good at it.

The ones who crashed, burned and left IT after 5-10 years are usually the ones who only went into the field because they saw dollar signs.

 Yes you can get a decent paying gig but not on your own. You have to use a head hunter!!  They will take 1/3 to 1/2 of your paycheck but get you those $30-40 hr jobs that lead to full time hiring.  

Disagree - the better companies I worked with or for often don't use outside recruiters. Also, what you're describing isn't a head hunter but a body shop, sorry, low level "consulting company" if they take money out of *your* paycheck - proper head hunters get paid by the company who is recruiting.

Unless you want to join the race to the bottom with all the overworked cheap "engineers", I would strongly advise staying away from body shops. IME, the feature that stands out most about the people they supply is that they're cheap, and companies like that build a reputation someone who wants a long term career probably doesn't want to be associated with.

And you can get a decent paying gig all on your own, for example with the strategy I mentioned above.

 

Try to work from home. A fair number of IT jobs are like that. And it saves you the commute time, cost and dressing. Etc.  

Those are usually for people with demonstrable experience though, and are surprisingly few and far between despite all the press this gets. My current job has a working from home component, but that's part time and fairly rare. Apparently a lot of middle management in larger companies got really nervous that they can't yell at their subordinates in person.

Take a look at Salesforce. Their very excellent Trailhead training is free. And you earn badges. They give you free environments to play in. Job market is decent here for the skills.

In reply to stanger_missle :

Keesler AFB seems to frequently be looking for cyber instructors, and veterans always have hiring preference. Have you looked for anything on usajobs that might be suitable for you & in an area you want to be?

You don't have to have a degree to make a good living in IT. I started with a 2 years electronics degree and then moved into IT when the company bought a new ERP system and needed people that were reasonably computer savvy and had a head for business processes. I'd find a company and start in their IT help desk then look for other IT openings. Help desk really is a good way to demonstrate to the company your skills both personal and technical. Since I've been in IT I've mentored a several people that moved from the help desk to become analysts on ERP and BI systems.

You could always start playing the IT contracting game. I am personally not a fan of contract work but it should get you in the door.  Avoid Robert Half, Teksystems like the plague though

In reply to BoxheadCougarTim :

As a young person you can sometimes trade experience for  a degree.  However once hired you now become under the direction of Human Resources.  Human Resources do nothing more than check off little boxes.  ( sometimes in spite of their mandate). 

When Top management asks for a degree you won’t be considered in many companies without that degree regardless of your skill and experience.  

Some companies even demand degrees from certain colleges. Preferring for example. Ivy League or well respected colleges such as MIT.  If you have the right mentor you might be able to work around those issues but sooner or later ( though there are rare exceptions) that lack of a degree will stop your progress.

I very much agree that real interest is a better motivator than money.  However sometimes what money can achieve  will sharpen your attention and interest. Nevertheless a dislike for a subject or a real disinterest in a subject  simply cannot be overcome by mere money. 

You might have to spend a few years wih the parents while using your post 911 to go to school and knockout debt. You can use CLEPS/DANTES to get mist way through your associates degree. If your parents aren't charging rent then def come up with an education and debt plan that'll get you on your feet in X amount of time. 

Maybe a touchy subject but, what happened that would cause you to get out the air force at 15 years, especially in that AFSC. Did you get sep pay? Also, have you filled for your va benefits yet? (Extra cash flow) 

federalgovernmentjobs.us/job-group/information-technology.html

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Federal jobtitles and job listings related to Information Technology Federal Jobs.

In reply to MrChaos :

The way companies seem to work today is that they are very eager to employ well trained young people for a career ( provided all the boxes are checked).  And the right person in management  is involved. 

Even in my youth it wasn’t so much what you knew but who  you knew .  Contractors , good ones,  know those people and make a clear advocate for you. 

Then once your income exceeds your replacement’s cost then loyalty, experience, and  knowledge must be second to the companies bottom line.  

In short companies want good and cheap employees. Older employees do not meet that.  So we are set out to pasture.  Once past 50. It becomes hard to find employment and past 60 nearly impossible. Especially without the aide  of headhunters and contractors. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I feel for Stanger-.  Thank God I'm retired.  I see how my kids are doing, tough sledding.  My son is FDNY, and my daughter is a nurse.  Both have good jobs, but can't seem to get thieir leg up.  It's tough on young and old, when you are stuck in the working class.   For me and my wife, it's time to get out of NY.

Agree USAJOBS is a place to start. Also check out companies around military bases that do contract work. Our IT are contractors. I'm an army civilian. With what (little) I know about IT, certification means more than a degree. As for going to college and getting that paper. It's possible to do, depending on how much you're willing to put into it. When I retired from the military I was a full-time college student working part time with a family. Got tired of how tight the budget was and took a better paying full-time job and cut back to half-time student in the evenings but did get that paper. At age 45. While I was doing it I didn't have a life. Work 8-hrs a day, go straight from work to class 2-3 times a week, spend the other evenings and weekends either doing school work, taking care of my 1 acre yard or driving around teenage daughters till they were old enough to drive themselves around. 

In reply to wlkelley3 :

I did much the same getting my second degree. Start work st 4:00am and work until 6:00 pm then drive like a maniac to get to class three evenings a week. Finish class at 9:00 and home by 10:00 to dive into bed and start again at 4:00. 

In reply to Dirtydog :

As hard as I feel I had it, the next generation is working even harder.  

I understand leaving the Air Force  after 15 years.  If he was an officer it’s up or out and gaining those promotions get harder and harder since all officers are under the same pressure for fewer and fewer positions.  

 I did 9 years and left. I never had any intention of making a career but had I left earlier I feel sure some wouldn’t have returned from our second tour without the guidance I was able to provide after my first tour. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to BoxheadCougarTim :

As a young person you can sometimes trade experience for  a degree.  However once hired you now become under the direction of Human Resources.  Human Resources do nothing more than check off little boxes.  ( sometimes in spite of their mandate). 

When Top management asks for a degree you won’t be considered in many companies without that degree regardless of your skill and experience.  

The point I'm trying to make is that may be true for some companies (it sounds like you have more experience with large companies that have been around for a long time and have, err, fossilized HR processes), but it's not a universal truth, especially not in IT.

This is not just the case for someone starting out in the field, and yes, there are companies out there that use a degree as a filter. But there are also plenty out there that couldn't care less.

Some companies even demand degrees from certain colleges. Preferring for example. Ivy League or well respected colleges such as MIT.  If you have the right mentor you might be able to work around those issues but sooner or later ( though there are rare exceptions) that lack of a degree will stop your progress.

Those are pretty rare these days, but yes, I've encountered them. And as I know from my own experience, those requirements aren't as set in stone as some people would like you to believe .

I very much agree that real interest is a better motivator than money.  However sometimes what money can achieve  will sharpen your attention and interest. Nevertheless a dislike for a subject or a real disinterest in a subject  simply cannot be overcome by mere money. 

Isn't that the truth. I would still add aptitude into the list though - I have an interest in plenty of things that very much stay in the hobby realm due to a lack of aptitude .

In reply to frenchyd :

The AFSC's he listed were enlisted AFSC's. Maybe he hit e5 HYT. They give seperation pay for that.