I've been a car salesman for two weeks now...

skruffy wrote: I'd rather sell cars over the internet as well. I love a deal where everything is done over the phone, and all I have to do is final paperwork and delivery. The hours of negotiation parts sucks at the other end of the table too. I've thought for a long time that new car sales should be an exclusively over the internet affair. Go to manufacturer.com, build your car, work out financing or whatever, and the car gets delivered to your house in a few weeks. At that time your used car trade get's appraised and you either decide to take the crappy trade price or try your luck on craigslist. Done. New car dealers become used car dealers, warranty service and delivery centers.

I know it can't be easy on the other side like you said.

When buying the wife's Subie it was a bit of a mix. She negotiated over email and got a great deal from two dealerships. She knew the car she wanted and researched so was educated when she went to purchase. The wrinkle? She had a trade in. I'll skip the details unless someone needs them.

Ultimately I was just there for moral support. She did a great job on her own. But I felt bad for the sales guy too. He was really cool. We talked cars, guns, just guy stuff after the sale.

So I agree with Skruffy. He was venting at first like anyone at a high pressure job. My problem is that the usual car dealerships setup the sales guy as a foil. They're making the sale, and beating you up on price, by pitting the sales guy against the customer. That dynamic can't last and in fact will not last. It's already changing.

ddavidv wrote: This thread reinforces my stance to never buy a new car.

I felt the same way. Still do. But sometimes new is the way to go. When GRM wrote about the Speed3, I wanted it. I wouldn't buy a used turbo car. Especially not one so ready to be modd'ed in some people's eyes. So I worked the email system and came away with, what I felt like, was a great deal.

There are ways to buy new without playing into the old "See the sales manager" and playing "hide the keys" game.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to skruffy: I don't like when a salesman asks me what payment I can afford, because I'm not buying a monthly payment, I'm buying a vehicle and I do that based on the price, not the payment. Oh, and you forgot one important key to sales - The customer is always right.

Dealers ask payment because they can make most any car on the lot what you want to pay. While you might not fall for it, the other 90% of the sheep will. That Tahoe might be a base stripper, but it's $500/mo.....for 8 years. Most people do not look at the financing terms or even interest rate. At this point, as a salesman, we have to look at it as a bartender serving an alcoholic. Yes, we know it's bad, but they're going to spend a lot of money.

When I worked at a dealership, they sold an F-150 with $10k in aftermarket on it to a kid who worked on a farm and made $10/hr and financed it for 7 years @600+/mo. Over half of what this kid is making for the next 7 years of his life is going to a truck. Ironically, he lives down the road from me so I see it regularly. It's already been trashed from farm work and he's sold off the 22in chrome wheels it came with because he couldn't afford the tires. It now runs on 4 spare tires.

The only people who make out at dealerships are the ones that look at the entire deal.

I seem to buy a new car about every ten years. I'm the classic sucker who wants to get it over with and doesn't mind paying a little extra for that. This year, I found what I wanted with a big "this-model-only, out-they-go" rebate. Got a salesman on the phone, he knocked off a little more, "You got a deal."

10 minutes later, the sales manager calls: "I'm really sorry, but that young man didn't have authority to go that low." I said, truthfully: "That's a coincidence. The same thing happended the last time I bought a new car. But I don't want to hurt a young man's career so the deal's off."

"No, no no. I didn't mean that."

I said: "I know, but you guys sure take the fun out of it."

bravenrace wrote: In reply to skruffy: I don't like when a salesman asks me what payment I can afford, because I'm not buying a monthly payment, I'm buying a vehicle and I do that based on the price, not the payment. Oh, and you forgot one important key to sales - The customer is always right.

Yup! He's right even when he's full of 'it'. I leave it to you which 'it' that might be...I'm sure you'll make the right choice of words. And yes, I know all about the filters; I wanted to point out that filters aren't always necessary to convey a message. YMMV, of course...

The part of all the sales wrangling that I hate is the idea of adapting the payment. I usually go in with my CU's prior approval up to some preset limit, say 40K. That way I can bypass most of that kind of crap. Then I have to deal with undercoating, Scotchgard, insurance and the rest of it. And I actually read ALL the paper I'm asked to sign. It's way too easy to get into a robo-sign mode and just sign everything that comes in front of you...and that's exactly what the salespersons are hoping for, because that's where a lot of their paycheck comes in. But I have only bought 3 cars from dealers; the rest have been private sales.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to skruffy: I don't like when a salesman asks me what payment I can afford, because I'm not buying a monthly payment, I'm buying a vehicle and I do that based on the price, not the payment.

I have another reason for this - like it or not, if you're going to be haggling with the salesman over price, I prefer not to put as few of my cards on the table as I can get away with. A lot of salesmen have been known to use the "how much are you looking to spend" as a minimum figure and work up. Whereas for me, that's a maximum figure and I want to work down. If I happen to have $20,000 in my "Next Car Money" account (not like I'd be likely to stuff that much in there, but this is a new car dealership example) and find a car that meets my needs for $15,000, I'm hanging onto the rest.

As long as cars are haggled over, the relationship between salesman and buyer is going to be at least somewhat antagonistic. It might be easier if the salesman's roll did not involve any negotiation and somebody else did that part of the job, but there's still a case of each side not wanting to put all their cards on the table if there's haggling to be done.

Datsun1500 wrote: One of the reasons they do ask payment is to check your reality. You would be amazed at the people that look at a $30,000 car and want payments of 250 a month. I think it makes sense to ask, just to make sure they understand about what they will be before getting them excited about the car.

That is because that is what TV commercials lead them to believe it will cost and they are tools. I just saw a spot during the game last night advertising a new $55k Benz for $399/mo. The small print says its a 24mo lease and you need $7500 down but if the ad does what it is designed to do... you get people thinking they can "buy" a 55k car for 4 bills a month. Those people make good customers too as long as they can get past the financing part - because they don't bother to read small print.

When I decided I wanted to trade my Liberty in for a 2011 Fiesta, i did all of my home work on the internet. Priced the Fiesta,then found a reasonable trade in price. I went to the dealer with what I was willing to pay in mind. After going over a few things at the dealer, the sales manger gave me an offer that was close enough. When the car I ordered became lost in the factory stop shipping and other delays, the dealer went all out to get me into a Fiesta. So I am happy with the whole deal,except for the frustration of waiting. which was not the dealers fault.

So I havent read the entire thread, so Im not sure if this topic has been brought up, but I really liked Saturns sales policy - no haggles, no negotiations on the car price. Theres wiggle room in trade in values yes, but the price on the sticker, minus any incentives was the price you paid. I almost wished they would go one step further (along the lines of a previous post about internet only sales) - why dont mfrs go direct to the public? there are ways to buy appliances like washing machines and dishwashers direct, you can buy electronics direct, you can buy tools (expensive machine tools I mean) direct - why not a car? Take the middle man out, offer great prices on cars the other guys cant - whats there to lose? I know buying out your dealership network will not be easy or cheap, but once you get past the growing pains, youre home free.

"...the customer is always right".

I don't work in a sales job, per se, but I do work in a job that involves the exchange of money and in my experience the customer IS NOT always right. In my line of work, when a customer thinks they can rip me off and I won't notice, and/or treats me like a whipped dog....they become an EX customer.

So what's my job? I deliver pizzas part time and you would be amazed by the folks who try to use coupons on meals that cost them less than $10, try to use coupons that have expired, and try to get free food because they didn't listen to the "operator" who told them to expect me at 10:05....even tho (because it's a VERY busy night) the time to expect me is more than 30 minutes after they 'phoned in their order.

To get back on topic... I hate to buy a new car because I don't like having my time wasted by folks who (apparently?) feel that if they wear me down I'll sign anything. About 25 years ago I went and shopped an Isuzu pickup (gas was expensive and I was considering trading for a diesel p'up). After a few minutes of talking, someone who may/or may not have even looked at my '82 J2000 offered me $6,000 for it. I figured my car, in it's condition, was worth about $4,000 so I thought A.) they are setting me up for something or B.) I stumbled into a sweet deal, as Isuzu wasn't exactly setting sales records anywhere at that time. The kicker? The "extra" cash for my trade was "tacked-on" to the price of the truck...with an extra $1,000 to spare.

Sales people can't accuse customers of playing games when they start the BS themselves. BTW, I second that complaint about "needing to approve the deal with the salesmanager". Either the sales person already knows how much the dealership will accept or the salesperson is a "flunky" who is taking time off from sweeping the floor and cleaning the restrooms.

BTW, I've tried the internet route, too. I saw a Ford Focus that was listed at one of the 6 Ford dealers near me. It was almost exactly what I wanted. I e-mailed for pricing info and got back an "offer" that was about $250 less than sticker. I qualified for 2 different rebates and when I "mentioned" this to the internet "sales manager" she told me she wasn't sure what the exact details were of the all the company/dealer rebates. She would have to see if I qualified for the rebates I referenced and when she got back to me, her price was STILL higher than the sticker minus the 2 rebates that I was entitled to. In other words, she thought she would run a variation of the "tie the customer in knots until they sigh ANYTHING" game. She lost that sale, and apparently many others as that dealership changed hands before going out of business entirely.

In my area we have a Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealer that advertises on tv "we can get you into a new Ram Quad Cab for $199....NO MONEY down, NOT a lease. What they only mention once in the ad is that the $199 is BI-MONTHLY. The $199 is mentioned 2 or 3 times, but after the 1st line of dialogue, that BI-MONTHLY is never heard again. They also don't tell you how stretched out your loan term will be because you had no down payment...tho it is BARELY visible in the world's teeny, tiniest letters at the bottom of the tv screen.

Tell me dealers don't play games.

In response to all the comments about running off to the sales manager, we have to do that and I hate it. The sales people don't have final say on the deal, and we only have so much room to work with. For the most part they don't want me to know what they could sell the car for.

Datsun1500 wrote:

Pumpkin Escobar wrote: So I havent read the entire thread, so Im not sure if this topic has been brought up, but I really liked Saturns sales policy - no haggles, no negotiations on the car price. Theres wiggle room in trade in values yes, but the price on the sticker, minus any incentives was the price you paid.

You can do that now. It is called MSRP. Everyone that went into Saturn paid MSRP. It was one of the best franchises to have as an owner, plenty of $$ made.

Agreed - but it was nice to not have a BS salsechump in your face tossing numbers and spin at you trying to turn you around until their ripoff sounds like a deal.

skruffy wrote: In response to all the comments about running off to the sales manager, we have to do that and I hate it. The sales people don't have final say on the deal, and we only have so much room to work with. For the most part they don't want me to know what they could sell the car for.

I disagree to some extent. A car salesperson is nothing more then a cashier at the local megalomart. Someone else sets the price to sell something at that given time. If you want a price correction, you will need manager approval to get it at that price. But where I disagree is that you have a factory invoice for every car on the lot that anyone can look at, either online or in the showroom. Clearly, you have a starting point for negotiations. If a customer is asking for something less then invoice by quite a large margin, there isn't any reason to involve a manager, as it is a worthless offer and reject it on the spot. Clearly the customer wants to play the game, play it back. If they walk, let them walk. There isn't any reason to have a heart attack for an shiny happy person customer. Now, if the customer asks for invoice plus, let's say $500, that is a very workable deal and worth getting up out of the chair to get manager approval on. I believe the less you hassle someone, the more they will work with you on "questionable" deals.

Brian

I'm sorry, I find it VERY hard to believe that a sales manager makes you keep coming back to them for umpteen "approvals" from the same customer...because he or she keeps sales people in the dark on an acceptable price/deal.

If I come to Dealer X, and offer invoice PLUS $500...are we really expected to believe that you will be "forced" to return to the sales manager several times until I finally "discover" that amount over invoice that's acceptable? Again, why is that the customer playing games? Admittedly, what I just described never really happens....but it makes the "I'm kept in the dark on price", THING, sound laughable.

I did car sales once. I refused to lie to my customers and actually knew what I was talking about when it came to the cars so that all hurt me because I would be honest. We sold both new and used on the same lot. My boss started giving me E36 M3 for not lying to a customer I had just to seal the deal and I walked back told my customer that I was just told to lie to him about the deal etc. The customer walked off the floor and so did I. This was in the middle of one of their biggest sale weekends of the year.

About a month later I was watching the news and that dealership was on the news being investigated for their crooked deals and constantly taking advantage of people. One old guy they had sold him 6 cars over the year and not given him any of the cars, they were all sitting on the lot (like 2 Prowlers and other high end rigs) or being driven by the owner and his kids.

bravenrace wrote: The customer is always right.

If selling cars is anything like residential construction/remodeling, the customer is usually a berkleying retard.

I'm glad I don't work in that field. I got raped on the first new car I bought over 20 years ago, and I take it out on the salesperson every time I buy a new car. Not in a personal way - we always get along, but I make sure that I get what I want for the price I want and don't put up with stupid BS like "what payment are you looking for?" or "what will it take to get you in a car today?"

integraguy wrote: I'm sorry, I find it VERY hard to believe that a sales manager makes you keep coming back to them for umpteen "approvals" from the same customer...because he or she keeps sales people in the dark on an acceptable price/deal. If I come to Dealer X, and offer invoice PLUS $500...are we really expected to believe that you will be "forced" to return to the sales manager several times until I finally "discover" that amount over invoice that's acceptable? Again, why is that the customer playing games? Admittedly, what I just described never really happens....but it makes the "I'm kept in the dark on price", THING, sound laughable.

What they are doing is deciding if they have enough revenue in total. They have a nut they have to meet... if they gouge the guy next to you for $XXX they only have to gouge you for $x. At the end of the day the balance sheet needs to be $XXXX. The sales guys can't see the big picture so they have to go to the "broker" for approval to make the deal.

Not for nothing but learn how to pinstripe and put on bug shields and vent shades and the occasional nerf bars for customer incentives on your dime .

Pumpkin Escobar wrote: So I havent read the entire thread, so Im not sure if this topic has been brought up, but I really liked Saturns sales policy - no haggles, no negotiations on the car price. Theres wiggle room in trade in values yes, but the price on the sticker, minus any incentives was the price you paid. I almost wished they would go one step further (along the lines of a previous post about internet only sales) - why dont mfrs go direct to the public? there are ways to buy appliances like washing machines and dishwashers direct, you can buy electronics direct, you can buy tools (expensive machine tools I mean) direct - why not a car? Take the middle man out, offer great prices on cars the other guys cant - whats there to lose? I know buying out your dealership network will not be easy or cheap, but once you get past the growing pains, youre home free.

Last I read that was actually illegal in most states. Something to do with the dealers wanting, and getting, a lock on auto sales to the consumer. The car dealers usually have a very strong political presence in most legislatures.

We have a friend that has worked at car dealerships for over almost 25 years in management and sales. I bet he has worked at 30+ dealerships too. I bought one car off him and felt "dirty" afterwards.

I have found that even the car salesman get jammed and burned by the owners and managers too as their commissions change and get lost and things happen.

I did work at a dealership for a short period of time when I was at college - I was the used car lot monkey. I've never seen a bigger collection of scumbags, and the higher you went the worse it got. The good guys got weeded out pretty quick, and the survivors moved up the food chain into the big offices.

It sounds to me like the whole process needs to be somewhat less antagonistic than it is. Saturn's idea was great, but it didn't save them from the scrapheap of usetabees in the greater scheme of things. It sounds like the dealers made money, but the manufacturer didn't, or at least not what corporate management thought they should have. I wonder where Saturn would fit in as an independent. I wonder if they could offer the same pricing as they did as a GM division.

This thread is making me even more reluctant to get a new car. I've been driving my mom's hand-me-down Grand Marquis since 2003 and I'm for for something a little more interesting.

Honestly, I'd love to be able to go into a car dealership and pay Edmunds TMV (True Market Value) for a given car on the lot. However, the first problem is that very few cars are equipped exactly the way I want (with an obvious exception being Honda), and the second problem is they're trying to squeeze you for as much money as possible.

The one new car we bought was a forum deal where they offered the car at $500 over invoice. It was a new model, and the price ended up being thousands less than I would have paid locally. Plus, the other benefit was that I got to choose how the car was equipped.

Since seeing the depreciation hit we've taken on that car (and it's actually held its value well compared to comparable models), I think I'd only buy used in the future.

BTW, the Edmunds series on Confessions of a Car Salesman was great, I read all 9 installments today!