In reply to JamesMcD :
Because good drivers are never killed by stupid people, right?
In reply to JamesMcD :
Because good drivers are never killed by stupid people, right?
This bothers me way more than maybe it should considering I didnt know him. Dude was an inspiration. And his daughters death is just such a damn shame. Life is short folks...
and he had an interesting car collection.......
https://www.hotcars.com/kobe-vs-shaq-who-has-the-better-car-collection/
RIP
Flying small aircraft is like driving cars, it only as dangerous as you make it. This appears to be what the the NTSB usually calls "controlled flight into terrain". From what I am hearing they circled for a while appearing to stall for time, then went for the pass and flew into the hillside.
Also a prime example of what has killed MANY a pilot. It is commonly called "got-to-get-there-itis". Usually involves someone flying into weather (and many time terrain) because they just have to get somewhere. Having a very famous and wealthy person wanting to be somewhere can influence bad behavior to.
That was a very capable helicopter, I am sure it is fully IFR capable (fly in any weather), as I would assume the pilot is also. How and why they flew so low is pretty hard to understand. I am going to guess it has something to do with assuming an IFR flight, not getting a proper weather briefing (or a bad one) and then getting thrown into IFR conditions (fog) unexpectedly. I am also assuming (not super familiar with helicopter operations) they would require VFR conditions to land, so they wanted to maintain them?
Unless there was some MAJOR equipment failures, this was just stupid. It's a freakin helicopter, you get in trouble, just go straight up pivot around and go back from where you came!
I can tell you (I am a few miles from the likely destination and work about a quarter mile from the impact), it was very nice and clear yesterday, and very much overcast and hazy this morning. I think it is unlikely he was trying to scud run under the clouds along the freeway (the crash is a good distance from the pass), but why the hell would you be so low?
Second guessing your instruments maybe?
That poor family. RIP. 
lnlogauge said:In reply to JamesMcD :
Because good drivers are never killed by stupid people, right?
C'mon dude, the snark is unnecessary.
Of course good drivers are sometimes killed by stupid people. But bad drivers also also kill themselves, or other bad drivers. My point was that the "airline travel is safer than driving" meme does not necessarily hold true when directed towards a particular individual. It is only true for driving in the aggregate.
Colin McRae still stings a little bit. Even tho Kobe played his entire career in LA, he had connections to the Philadelphia area and they have makeshift memorials where he played high school ball.
Huge bummer. Kobe was only 2 years older than me and my favorite player. A big reason I'm a lakers fan in Florida. Sad day. I can't imagine how hard this is on his family.
I have ridden in a helicopter once. All I could think about was that little snap ring that was holding something important in place and wondering if it was still going to stay in place. I won't be riding in another one.
My condolences and prayers go out to his family, friends and team mates.
Some more analysis: You can see the flight path here:
https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/article239662703.html
One question I had is, why go for the Calabasas pass, when there is fog, when you could just go through Chatsworth (a higher but much shorter pass, that opens up very quickly). If you look at the track, you can see that is exactly what they where trying to do, but then made a turn to the south ( I assume that pass was blocked).
The interesting (and scary) part is at the end (you can scrub to follow it slower). You can see them decent to around 1200 ft and turn into the pass. Be aware, at that point, the ROAD is 800 ASL.... the hill peaks are at 1400 ft... that give you 400 ft AGL... and it's foggy... Clearly he is trying to stay under a layer.
Then, as he clears the pass, there is obviously a decision point, makes a left 180 turn while gaining altitude, but of course, not back into the pass and hits the hillside. The altitude indication on the flight path seems to be wrong since the highest peak there is at 1600 and the flight path shows 2000. I can look tomorrow, but I am pretty positive there are no power lines running across those ridges.
Here is a topo map of the crash area. You can see how tight the pass is. The impact area is somewhere to the right of the Wright Middle School:
If you listen to the ATC comms, helo 2EX was flying Special VFR; he was following the main highways in the region, and both the pilot and the controllers are discussing the flight path in these terms. Scud running along that route and losing sight of the road and the terrain in cloud/fog at the wrong moment would make things get very dicey very quickly.
As a nearly lifelong LA county resident, I was always a Lakers fan. Kobe became a Laker just before I entered middle school. I played basketball as a kid. I watched each and every one of those elbow fadeaways knowing they were going to go in. His work ethic was second to none. He inspired so many. As far as sports idols go, you can do far worse.
This was a sad day for professional basketball.
May God rest his soul.
In reply to aircooled :
Where did you get the map ? And if that available for all of SoCal , its better than Google maps for finding places....
looked at flight path and they went out to the Valley and then West , was it clearer out there ?
And how far away from the crash site were they trying to go for the Girls Baskerball game at Mamba Sports Academy ?
Such a pity that things went wrong ,
Toyman01 said:I have ridden in a helicopter once. All I could think about was that little snap ring that was holding something important in place and wondering if it was still going to stay in place. I won't be riding in another one.
I knew an Air Force colonel who had flown B-1s for his career. He refused to ride in helicopters, said they operated on PFM
That is Google maps, you just have to turn on the terrain feature (in the menu). It is nice to see the topo lines with elevations.
I think the valley had a somewhat low ceiling and it looks like they where staying under that. There ultimate destination was about 20 miles directly west of there, but I don't see any way they could land there. I used to work literally across the street from the building and there is no way you are landing a helicopter of that size any where near there (there are some dirt lots down the street, but that seems unlikely). I am suspicious they where headed for Camarillo airport and then would take a car from there (about 10 miles away).
It's looking like he was desperate not to have to punch up through the weather. The helicopter is certainly capable of it, but he may have not been rated for it (IFR flight in helicopters is pretty uncommon I believe). He had to know that it was clear at Camarillo, if he was going there.
There is mention of air traffic control giving him clearance. It should be noted that responsibility for actions here are ENTIRELY on the pilot. ATC has no specific info on the condition in the pass, they just work with what the pilot is telling them (and some limited weather reports), and the pilot has NO responsibility to follow ATC if there is any safety consideration.
Also of note, and maybe to quell some fears, based on the info presented in the flight path, it appears the helicopter was doing maybe 120 knots when it hit the hill... that's 130 mph, to 0 in about 15 feet (for those in the back), that as got to be many many 100's of g's, in full fog... they where all dead VERY quickly, almost certainly had no idea what was happening. This is also reinforced by the crash pictures, which show the rotor mast well separate from the helicopter body, which indicates a very serious impact.
There is one report of a guy, sounding very authoritative, talking about what he heard, and he seems to think it was traveling "about 5 knots and hovering", in the fog, which is highly unlikely. I suspect he kept his speed up (what the flight track shows). It looks like he saw the fog bank close in (or flew into it), said hell with this, grabbed a bunch of collective (climb) and made his turn on instruments.
I've been flying helicopters since 1990. I don't know many facts about this particular incident, but I'll second what aircooled has posted. Here's what I have found... The pilot was flying visually (looking outside the aircraft for reference) and the weather on his intended flight path became too bad to continue through controlled airspace. He obtained a "Special VFR" clearance through controlled airspace, C and then D, that allowed him to continue visually as long as he remained clear of the clouds with 1/2 mile visibility. While flying through that airspace, he was delayed to allow traffic that was on instrument flight plans to move through the area. Weather at a nearby airport was reported at 2-1/2 miles visibility and clouds at 1100 feet above the ground, but weather conditions in an area like that can vary significantly. On the radio, the pilot sounds calm and professional. The aircraft was a Sikorsky S76B which is a very capable aircraft and is certified to fly IFR (with a single pilot). Flying visually with the terrain, the pilot would not have had the autopilot engaged.
In the Army we did a lot of things with our helicopters that I would not consider doing as a civilian. I had a few occasions where I pushed the weather a little too far and unintentionally flew into clouds or heavy fog. Even with a great aircraft and a lot of experience, the initial transition from flying visually to flying only by the indication on the aircraft's instruments can be very difficult. Knowing which way is up and having a sense of speed and direction can be instantly lost. I was fortunate enough to survive the bravado and stupidity of my early years, but that does not grant immunity from the unexpected. That pilot may have taken that route before without any trouble. Although helicopters can hover, a big Sikorsky doesn't stop instantly or turn on a dime from cruise speed. In bad visibility a hard maneuver can be very disorienting.
It's too early to know for sure what happened, but most likely the pilot lost visual reference, became disoriented as he tired to transition to instruments or regain visual reference, then hit the terrain. A sad, sudden loss of all onboard. I'll take it to heart when I make my weather decisions, but also keep the loss in mind at a traffic light about to turn red or a speed limit that looks too slow.
Sad, he was my all-time favorite.
He's been using helicopters in the LA/Orange county areas for the last 20 years to avoid the traffic of getting to practice, games, etc.
aircooled said:
Also of note, and maybe to quell some fears, based on the info presented in the flight path, it appears the helicopter was doing maybe 120 knots when it hit the hill... that's 130 mph, to 0 in about 15 feet (for those in the back), that as got to be many many 100's of g's, in full fog... they where all dead VERY quickly, almost certainly had no idea what was happening. This is also reinforced by the crash pictures, which show the rotor mast well separate from the helicopter body, which indicates a very serious impact.
Depending on how I try and calculate it I get up to 1000Gs of acceleration (or rather, deceleration)... it's difficult to calculate exactly because there is a time component and how to exactly calculate the time component for a crash is difficult because it's near-instantaneous. I don't remember what crash load spectrum the 76 is designed for but given the most we typically use for high-mass crash (used to ensure that the frames don't fail and things like the engines and such don't pancake the occupants) is 20Gs- yeah, we can't design ANYTHING to survive an impact of over 100Gs besides solid chunks of metal (and even then that's a LOT of force and it would certainly deform at a minimum of not fracture depending on how brittle it was), and NOTHING we can do can make the human body survive that. Many pilot's seats are designed to 'stroke' and absorb the kinetic energy of a crash (and keep the rotors from decapitating the pilots when they deflect down as well...), but you'd need seats that could stroke like 2,000ft to drop a 1,000G crash down to a more 'survivable' 5G's. I really wish it were possible to design things to survive accidents like this... but sadly it just isn't... the human body isn't really built well to survive impacts above speeds that it's capable of achieving unassisted...
Kobe was a NBA player who donated a lot to charity and inspired a lot of people.
He was also accused of sexual assault, and some people think the idolization of his NBA success has helped masked that part of his history. There was a lot of debate surrounding those events, and during the MeToo movement, some thought his success helped him brush off the accusations in a case of he said she said. I think he handled it well, but others may disagree.
I think it's just fair to see him and the others onboard that helicopter as unfortunate victims in a air accident. Something that still happens despite ever improving technology and safety systems.
pheller said:Kobe was a NBA player who donated a lot to charity and inspired a lot of people.
He was also accused of sexual assault, and some people think the idolization of his NBA success has helped masked that part of his history. There was a lot of debate surrounding those events, and during the MeToo movement, some thought his success helped him brush off the accusations in a case of he said she said. I think he handled it well, but others may disagree.
I think it's just fair to see him and the others onboard that helicopter as unfortunate victims in a air accident. Something that still happens despite ever improving technology and safety systems.
As with most cases like his Colorado incident, we don't and never will know the truth of the matter. I believe he probably did rape that woman. And I also believe that since then (and even before), he had lived what appeared to be an admirable life. Things like being one of the biggest supporters of women's athletics, learning foreign languages so he could talk to opponents and teammates on the court. And he was a generational talent, something that is awesome to watch.
Ultimately, there has to be nuance. I don't want to dismiss the good that he has done for basketball and for humanity. But we also cannot dismiss what happened to that woman in Colorado. And at the end of the day, a father, husband, a daughter and sister, and 7 other souls have perished - there is no way that it isn't a tragedy.
AAZCD said:I've been flying helicopters since 1990. I don't know many facts about this particular incident, but I'll second what aircooled has posted. Here's what I have found... The pilot was flying visually (looking outside the aircraft for reference) and the weather on his intended flight path became too bad to continue through controlled airspace. He obtained a "Special VFR" clearance through controlled airspace, C and then D, that allowed him to continue visually as long as he remained clear of the clouds with 1/2 mile visibility. While flying through that airspace, he was delayed to allow traffic that was on instrument flight plans to move through the area. Weather at a nearby airport was reported at 2-1/2 miles visibility and clouds at 1100 feet above the ground, but weather conditions in an area like that can vary significantly. On the radio, the pilot sounds calm and professional. The aircraft was a Sikorsky S76B which is a very capable aircraft and is certified to fly IFR (with a single pilot). Flying visually with the terrain, the pilot would not have had the autopilot engaged.
In the Army we did a lot of things with our helicopters that I would not consider doing as a civilian. I had a few occasions where I pushed the weather a little too far and unintentionally flew into clouds or heavy fog. Even with a great aircraft and a lot of experience, the initial transition from flying visually to flying only by the indication on the aircraft's instruments can be very difficult. Knowing which way is up and having a sense of speed and direction can be instantly lost. I was fortunate enough to survive the bravado and stupidity of my early years, but that does not grant immunity from the unexpected. That pilot may have taken that route before without any trouble. Although helicopters can hover, a big Sikorsky doesn't stop instantly or turn on a dime from cruise speed. In bad visibility a hard maneuver can be very disorienting.
It's too early to know for sure what happened, but most likely the pilot lost visual reference, became disoriented as he tired to transition to instruments or regain visual reference, then hit the terrain. A sad, sudden loss of all onboard. I'll take it to heart when I make my weather decisions, but also keep the loss in mind at a traffic light about to turn red or a speed limit that looks too slow.
You do air EMS? I'm an ER doc that recently started flying with a local program after doing it in residency training years ago. It's sobering to see stories like this but I think it's important work and I trust our pilots and do my damnedest to help out at least with my eyes. Flying these things is a tremendous feat...I'm impressed every time.
At the first news conference, the Sheriff blasted TMZ for knocking on Mrs. Bryant's door for an interview even before any IDs were confirmed. Can't say for sure she even knew.
turtl631 said:You do air EMS? I'm an ER doc that recently started flying with a local program after doing it in residency training years ago. It's sobering to see stories like this but I think it's important work and I trust our pilots and do my damnedest to help out at least with my eyes. Flying these things is a tremendous feat...I'm impressed every time.
Yes, I retired from the Army and have been flying EMS for about 15 years now. The people I work with, medical crews and comm center, are all exceptional. Strapping yourself in the back of a helicopter in the middle of the night on a moments notice to go to an unknown scene takes a special kind of person. Thanks for doing what you do Doc. There's really nothing else I'd rather do for a job.
The equipment has really improved over the last 15 years too. I used to be allowed to fly night-unaided in worse weather than I can fly now with NVGs. I've heard that the 1990s model S76 that Kobe was riding in didn't have a Terrain Awareness system. My current aircraft has traffic and terrain warnings with a synthetic terrain display that has an obstacle database for all the towers and high powerlines. The screen display in front of me is much like a flight simulator view on a PC rather than the old 'steam gauges' that I used to fly with. It makes a big difference in safety, but still complacency is what kills.
914Driver said:At the first news conference, the Sheriff blasted TMZ for knocking on Mrs. Bryant's door for an interview even before any IDs were confirmed. Can't say for sre she even knew.
An LA reporter has been suspended without pay for erroneously reporting that all the Bryant's children were on board before they had even CONFIRMED Kobe was one of the passengers.
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