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Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy PowerDork
6/23/15 9:10 a.m.
pinchvalve wrote: I hate hidden fees in any situation. I hate when you show up to buy anything (a car, a plane ticket, a hotel room, whatever) and then find out that the price is 25% higher.

We bought whale watching tickets online 2 days ago for $9.00 only to arrive and get tapped for a $2.50 gasoline fee. We didn't care since the original tickets were $36 and we went on a 3 hour tour yesterday.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
6/23/15 9:19 a.m.
Flight Service wrote: From KBB FAQ "What are Trade-In Values? Trade-in Value is what consumers can expect to receive from a dealer for a trade-in vehicle assuming an accurate appraisal of condition. This value will likely be less than the Private Party Value because the reselling dealer incurs the cost of safety inspections, reconditioning and other costs of doing business." So the Trade in and retail values are rendered useless because the scam is he is "telling you" his costs but he isn't taking it away from the retail price. It's a scam (double charging for reconditioning and overhead, lying about reconditioning costs, ect.), just not the obvious one. But hey semantics aside it is a E36 M3 dealership and a E36 M3 price on that car.

Note that I said that the bottom line needed to be a reasonable market price for the car. It's still not a scam, it's just price gouging. Do your homework and don't buy a car that's too expensive for what it is.

If purchasers are allowed (even encouraged) to offer below market value without being called "greedy", why are dealers not allowed to ask above market value without the torches and pitchforks coming out?

All of this is completely separate from the unhorsing thing, which is out and out fraud.

EvanR
EvanR Dork
6/23/15 9:58 a.m.

This has been an interesting and lively discussion. A lot of very valid points have come up. I think my position needs some clarification.

First, I'm not upset that the dealer wants $14k for the car. As has been discussed, it's not unreasonable for a dealer to ask a higher price than the car is deemed worth. That allows them some room to negotiate, and that's what dealers do.

Second, I'm not upset that the dealer needs to recoup the costs of reconditioning and adding the "Hyundai Certified" label. That's fair - dealers exist to make money.

What I am upset about and offended by is that by burying a $1995 "reconditioning fee" in the fine print, the dealer has advertised on Auto Trader a price that is $1995 less than the actual asking price of the car. Not only is it disingenuous, it's not fair to shoppers nor to other dealers. Yes, eventually a prospective buyer learns the real asking price and can make their decision from there - but at first glance, they are cheating the Auto Trader system by making the bold print price cheaper than the actual figure they are truly asking.

Taken to the extreme, they could list this car online for $5000, and bury a $9000 "reconditioning fee" in the fine print.

It simply is a method for cheating the system so that they get you in the door. Like I said originally, when the price popped up at $12k, it piqued my interest. How many people would have the same reaction, but not dig into the fine print before heading to the dealer and wasting their time on a car that was priced above average? The dealer is counting on that, and it irks me, that's all.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/23/15 11:56 a.m.

Car dealers, bartenders, waitstaff and many others have jobs designed to separate you from as much money as they possibly can. Your job is to hold onto as much money as you can.

Karacticus
Karacticus GRM+ Memberand Reader
6/23/15 12:25 p.m.
Datsun310Guy wrote:
pinchvalve wrote: I hate hidden fees in any situation. I hate when you show up to buy anything (a car, a plane ticket, a hotel room, whatever) and then find out that the price is 25% higher.
We bought whale watching tickets online 2 days ago for $9.00 only to arrive and get tapped for a $2.50 gasoline fee. We didn't care since the original tickets were $36 and we went on a 3 hour tour yesterday.

Was it the SS Minnow?

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/23/15 12:35 p.m.
Duke wrote:
HiTempguy wrote:
Duke wrote: I agree completely that it's annoying. I disagree completely that it's a scam.
Note to self; never buy anything from Duke
Some people think otherwise.

Some people thought the Edsel was a good idea too.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/23/15 12:41 p.m.
Duke wrote:
Flight Service wrote: From KBB FAQ "What are Trade-In Values? Trade-in Value is what consumers can expect to receive from a dealer for a trade-in vehicle assuming an accurate appraisal of condition. This value will likely be less than the Private Party Value because the reselling dealer incurs the cost of safety inspections, reconditioning and other costs of doing business." So the Trade in and retail values are rendered useless because the scam is he is "telling you" his costs but he isn't taking it away from the retail price. It's a scam (double charging for reconditioning and overhead, lying about reconditioning costs, ect.), just not the obvious one. But hey semantics aside it is a E36 M3 dealership and a E36 M3 price on that car.
Note that I said that the bottom line needed to be a reasonable market price for the car. It's still not a *scam*, it's just price gouging. Do your homework and don't buy a car that's too expensive for what it is. If purchasers are allowed (even encouraged) to offer below market value without being called "greedy", why are dealers not allowed to ask above market value without the torches and pitchforks coming out? All of this is completely separate from the unhorsing thing, which is out and out fraud.

I have no pitch forks and rarely go to a lot without a out the door price in writing. Well at least not purchase, I have usually skulked around after hours with a flash light and inspected the car before I make first contact.

I know they are greedy. That's fine. I don't fault them for that. I have walked up just being nosy and asked for a price, I have never bought that way. I have had dealers tell me, "this has been on our lot for awhile make an offer." I have had to tell more than one "we are too far apart to even start talking." No pitch forks, no cussing, just my position. Some respect it some don't.

What I do fault them for is your semantic argument on the scam. Not de-horsing level scam, but this is a scam. Just because it is in the fine print doesn't make it not a scam. This is almost a bait and switch. They are just using the same car. I guarantee the print ad says a bunch of initials after the price which most people would assume to be TTL which ends up being TTLDPRF or about 30% of the car.

We can get into a semantics argument about the definition of scam, but like I said, it is a E36 M3 deal from a E36 M3 dealer, that will do everything, including lying about the vehicles price, to get people on their lot.

Run away

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/23/15 12:52 p.m.

I did purchase an extended warranty on a car once and the F&I guy said it was required for the interest rate. Which was a lie and illegal. (An accurate statement would have been, If you buy the warranty, I won't gouge you on the financing as much as I can change the rate I show you at will.) The nice thing about Louisiana is there is about 6 pieces of paper stating that financing, rate, and vehicle sale are NOT conditional on acceptance of accessories or extended warranty.

So I went home and a week later called to cancel (waited till my other loan was paid for). I got the cussing of a lifetime from the F&I guy. Everything from he has a contract, I was a berkeleying liar, to he had me on tape agreeing to it. I told that was fine, just give me in writing that I had to have the warranty for my finance rate and I can add it to my packet and be done with it. I would even accept a transcription or a copy of his video of the contract signing. I also noted that his solution to a customer having a documentation issue is calling them a liar and cussing at them was an odd customer service approach.

He canceled the extended warranty and I got the cheaper rate. Knowing the law is helpful. Reading your contract and paperwork even more. Read people read.

EvanR
EvanR Dork
6/23/15 10:25 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: The dealer advertises like that so it will be the lowest on Auto Trader, because people shop that way on Auto Trader.

Well, that right there is the makings of a race to the bottom, isn't it? If ABC Hyundai can put it on Auto Trader for $12k (+$2k reconditioning), what's to stop Joe Schmoe Hyundai from listing a similar car on Auto Trader for $11k (+$3k reconditioning)?

Now along comes Jane Doe Hyundai listing that same car on Auto Trader for $10k (+$4k reconditioning).

Eventually, Pete Smith Hyundai lists the car on Auto Trader for $1.00 (+$13,999 reconditioning).

Ultimately, every car on Auto Trader is listed with a $1.00 price, and you have to pick through the fine print on every ad to know the price on the car. Who does that help?

bgkast
bgkast GRM+ Memberand UberDork
6/23/15 10:49 p.m.

In reply to EvanR:

Does reconditioning count towards the challenge budget?

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
6/24/15 4:39 a.m.

BS shady sales tactics simply don't have to exist. But they do, and this is why I avoid dealers like the plague. Except this past Saturday.

Respected local BMW-Triumph motorcycle dealer had a used Triumph I was interested in. Asking price was a bit high but we all know that's just a starting point, right? I hike up my britches and go in expecting a huge battle.

Not finanancing? Okay, we'll discount that price $700 for a cash purchase with no trade. Add on reasonable tag fees and the state's ripoff tax and...crap...they want less than I was going to offer. Oh, and here's a free T-shirt, full tank of gas and a fresh inspection sticker. Oh, and we'll store the bike you rode here on for free so you can ride the new one home today.

Rare, but it happens. I will tell everyone I meet to buy from them, just like I tell everyone I meet not to buy from the local Suzuki dealer for treating me like I was an inconvenience the last time I set foot in their place. Shop with your feet before your wallet.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/24/15 5:52 a.m.

In reply to EvanR:

This is why Ebay now has that "excessive shipping and handling charges" because it is a scam. Congrats you just bought that miata brake caliper for $5.93. Now you have to pay $499.99 shipping and handling.

In reply to ddavidv:

You found a rare one there. But that is alot more common in the Motorcycle Industry IME that the auto industry.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltimaDork
6/24/15 10:46 a.m.
EvanR wrote:
Datsun1500 wrote: The dealer advertises like that so it will be the lowest on Auto Trader, because people shop that way on Auto Trader.
Well, that right there is the makings of a race to the bottom, isn't it? If ABC Hyundai can put it on Auto Trader for $12k (+$2k reconditioning), what's to stop Joe Schmoe Hyundai from listing a similar car on Auto Trader for $11k (+$3k reconditioning)? Now along comes Jane Doe Hyundai listing that same car on Auto Trader for $10k (+$4k reconditioning). Eventually, Pete Smith Hyundai lists the car on Auto Trader for $1.00 (+$13,999 reconditioning). Ultimately, every car on Auto Trader is listed with a $1.00 price, and you have to pick through the fine print on every ad to know the price on the car. Who does that help?

Already being done. I've seen more than a few listings for $1 or some other such crap.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UberDork
6/24/15 12:07 p.m.
Duke wrote:
HiTempguy wrote:
Duke wrote: I agree completely that it's annoying. I disagree completely that it's a scam.
Note to self; never buy anything from Duke
Some people think otherwise.

How do you think scammers get away with their crap for so long? Somebody drinks the koolaid

Mike
Mike GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/24/15 6:06 p.m.
Bobzilla wrote:
EvanR wrote:
Datsun1500 wrote: The dealer advertises like that so it will be the lowest on Auto Trader, because people shop that way on Auto Trader.
Well, that right there is the makings of a race to the bottom, isn't it? If ABC Hyundai can put it on Auto Trader for $12k (+$2k reconditioning), what's to stop Joe Schmoe Hyundai from listing a similar car on Auto Trader for $11k (+$3k reconditioning)? Now along comes Jane Doe Hyundai listing that same car on Auto Trader for $10k (+$4k reconditioning). Eventually, Pete Smith Hyundai lists the car on Auto Trader for $1.00 (+$13,999 reconditioning). Ultimately, every car on Auto Trader is listed with a $1.00 price, and you have to pick through the fine print on every ad to know the price on the car. Who does that help?
Already being done. I've seen more than a few listings for $1 or some other such crap.

Agreed. Unless I'm explicitly looking for something super cheap, I browse Craigslist with a $1001 minimum price to avoid this crap.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UberDork
6/24/15 6:36 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: If you shopped at the grocery store like people shop for cars, they would advertise the same way. People walk into the store, see the milk is $2.99 and pay for it. They don't demand to know what the store paid for the milk, and offer less, based on the fact that they "know" it "really did not cost that much". The dealer advertises like that so it will be the lowest on Auto Trader, because people shop that way on Auto Trader. If the car buying public was not all about price, but more about value, things would change.

It doesnt f'in matter how people shop. They want the lowest price, period. If there was a grocery store you could haggle at, a lot of people would go there if they felt they were getting a better deal. berkeley your " value", I'll decide what is valuable, and to me what is valuable is the lowest price, end of discussion. Everything else is lip service.

Posts like this and your " I'm betterer then you and smarterer" attitude are the reasons I think you are an shiny happy person.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
6/24/15 7:35 p.m.
Mike wrote:
Bobzilla wrote:
EvanR wrote:
Datsun1500 wrote: The dealer advertises like that so it will be the lowest on Auto Trader, because people shop that way on Auto Trader.
Well, that right there is the makings of a race to the bottom, isn't it? If ABC Hyundai can put it on Auto Trader for $12k (+$2k reconditioning), what's to stop Joe Schmoe Hyundai from listing a similar car on Auto Trader for $11k (+$3k reconditioning)? Now along comes Jane Doe Hyundai listing that same car on Auto Trader for $10k (+$4k reconditioning). Eventually, Pete Smith Hyundai lists the car on Auto Trader for $1.00 (+$13,999 reconditioning). Ultimately, every car on Auto Trader is listed with a $1.00 price, and you have to pick through the fine print on every ad to know the price on the car. Who does that help?
Already being done. I've seen more than a few listings for $1 or some other such crap.
Agreed. Unless I'm explicitly looking for something super cheap, I browse Craigslist with a $1001 minimum price to avoid this crap.

Ha, now that you mention it, I've been doing that for years!

EvanR
EvanR Dork
6/24/15 11:47 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: I . . . rarely go to a lot without a out the door price in writing.

I'd love to know how you accomplish that. Neither via email nor telephone have I ever been able to get an out-the-door price on a car. In fact, I can't even get an out-the-door price by visiting a dealership.

Seriously. I have visited many car dealerships in my lifetime. I can walk up to a car in the showroom or on the lot, find a salesman, and ask him or her, "How much will this car cost me out-the-door?" They simply can not (or will not) answer the question. My question is always returned with a barrage of irrelevant questions:

Will you be financing the car? (How is that relevant to your price on the car? It might be in their eyes, but it isn't in mine.)

Do you have a trade in? (Again, irrelevant.)

Are you willing to buy today? (Maybe, maybe not. Does the price change tomorrow?)

So I am really, seriously wondering, Mr. Flight Service, how are you getting a price on the car without leaving the house??

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy PowerDork
6/25/15 1:45 a.m.

In reply to EvanR:

Are you willing to buy today? My best deal is when I flat out tell them I am ready - TODAY is the day!

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/25/15 7:12 a.m.

In reply to EvanR:

I email the dealerships with all that information upfront, and follow up with a phone call from a blocked number if there are discrepancies.

If you have a car you are interested in I would be happy to show you. I just helped another co-worker buy a car the same way. I sold cars for 3 1/2 years. Once you cut to the quick they realize you are an easy sell and not a mark. BS on all but the most stupid dealership stops.

Hal
Hal SuperDork
6/25/15 2:26 p.m.
EvanR wrote:
Flight Service wrote: I . . . rarely go to a lot without a out the door price in writing.
So I am really, seriously wondering, Mr. Flight Service, how are you getting a price on the car without leaving the house??

I don't get an "out the door" price from the dealer, go there with my own.

Do your own research before hand (easy to do on the internet) and come up with a price you want to pay. Then walk in and tell them what it is. If you are not unreasonable it will work.

I just did this Tuesday to buy a new Subaru Outback. It takes a little more research with new cars but the process is the same:

Went to the lot and saw what I wanted, and got the sticker price. Went home and researched invoice price. Calculated value of my trade-in using KBB, NADA, CarMax, and CarFax. Calculated Tax, Title and Tags. Put it all together(allowing for close to end of month and quarter) and came up with a price.

Went to the dealership and told them "This is the vehicle I want, this is what I am trading in and this is what I will pay you. I can write you a check right now."

They had to check out the trade-in which took ~20 minutes and then gave me a price $400 more than my offer. I said "No" and got up to leave which precipitated a conference between the salesman and the manager. Five minutes later they said "OK". I did the paper work, wrote the check, and came back two hours later to pick up my new vehicle.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UberDork
6/25/15 5:18 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: In reply to HiTempguy: If the only value to you is the cheapest price, then you know the value of nothing. I also don't care if you think I'm an shiny happy person as I type from the beach in Anguilla. Do you even know where Anguilla is?

You just proved my point, keep on keepin on shiny happy person rich person (thumbsup).

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/25/15 7:49 p.m.

This thread has de-evolved for some reason and I have no idea why

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UberDork
6/25/15 7:49 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: In reply to HiTempguy: So no? It's an island in the Caribbean. It's nice here. I worked hard to make a better life for my family. I won't apologize for it, or feel bad, because you didn't. You had the same opportunity as I did, and don't bother listing the "excuses" on why you couldn't. I won't believe them. Keep calling me shiny happy person rich guy, I've been called worse. I'll just call you lazy.

Oh, I just wasn't stooping to your level of condecension. Call you an shiny happy person isn't condecending, or in fact rude when it is true.

Sure do know where that is. I also never said anything about being poor, I'm doing really well thanks for someone as young as myself

You being wealthy and an shiny happy person are not intertwined. They are seperate things, but it is clear how your money has clouded your perception of how the world truly works for 80%+ of people in it.

To say that the lowest price isn't typically the most important aspect is truly something only someone with TOO MUCH money can say with complete sincerity.

If you want, you can hire me to work for you and pay me too much for my services because price is such an insignificant factor in your decisions

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/25/15 7:51 p.m.

Can we just all agree that I am an shiny happy person and get back to the topic at hand?

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