I bet the new Bronco with the Ecoboost 2.3 gets similar mileage to my N/A 2.5 in my Mazda 3. Even the V8 powered full size stuff gets decent mileage now. This isn't 1979 (looks outside at the blue 4x4 thing that gets 8mpg from a 130hp V8). The doofus that wrote that article probably thinks all Broncos were driven by OJ.
MrChaos said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
what happened with pirate?
Corporate greed. When Lance sold the site to Vertical Scope (VS) years ago, the forum membership was assured "nothing would change." Well, slowly but surely, things changed, 99% of the paying members, including myself, left. Over the years VS ignored the community, added more and more ads, started adding advertisements as thread titles even, the board was updated to a whole new format, Pirate's format was lost forever. The final nail in the coffin though, when asked for proof that the percentage of blue star member's subscription payment was going toward the Blue Ribbon Coalition to support land use issues, VS couldn't/wouldn't provide any. Some members with connections with the BRC did some research, and there were no records of any payment from VS, so it seems VS had been pocketing the money.
Thankfully a long time Pirate member named Austin, is pretty tech savvy, and saw the writing on the wall, he made irate4x4.com to be like OG Pirate. There's way more details, but Austin has covered his legal bases, has downloaded everything from Pirate, cataloged it, and if you created some old threads on Pirate you want migrated to Irate, Austin can oblige.
VS isn't happy about it, many reports of people getting banned for advertising irate4x4, they've put a filter where every time you type irate4x4 it automatically changes to pirate4x4.
New bronco looks cool as hell, put me down for the black base with a stick and steelies.
I have a Bronco 2 around here that I tried to give away years ago and no one wanted. Was pretty stunned to see what they go for now, I'll have to fix it up and sell it someday
bigdaddylee82 said:MrChaos said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
what happened with pirate?
Corporate greed. When Lance sold the site to Vertical Scope (VS) years ago, the forum membership was assured "nothing would change." Well, slowly but surely, things changed, 99% of the paying members, including myself, left. Over the years VS ignored the community, added more and more ads, started adding advertisements as thread titles even, the board was updated to a whole new format, Pirate's format was lost forever. The final nail in the coffin though, when asked for proof that the percentage of blue star member's subscription payment was going toward the Blue Ribbon Coalition to support land use issues, VS couldn't/wouldn't provide any. Some members with connections with the BRC did some research, and there were no records of any payment from VS, so it seems VS had been pocketing the money.
Thankfully a long time Pirate member named Austin, is pretty tech savvy, and saw the writing on the wall, he made irate4x4.com to be like OG Pirate. There's way more details, but Austin has covered his legal bases, has downloaded everything from Pirate, cataloged it, and if you created some old threads on Pirate you want migrated to Irate, Austin can oblige.
VS isn't happy about it, many reports of people getting banned for advertising irate4x4, they've put a filter where every time you type irate4x4 it automatically changes to pirate4x4.
That kinda sounds like Harmony Central forum too.
Got bought up, they screwed with the people on it and went from something like the 8th biggest forum on the internet to something like 9000th.
It was a great musicians forum before that
Keith Tanner said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
Ultra4 has solid axle rigs because 1) that's what a lot of people know, 2) they're easier and 3) problems in the rocks with slow you down more than you can make up speed in the desert. But IFS rigs won KOH for three years before another solid axle rig took the 2020 race. So it's not quite so cut and dried. And seriously, while every off-roader thinks they're doing KOH - they're not. Only the real fringe is going to find this a problem, a much larger group will appreciate the improved wheel control.
It's like a sports car with struts instead of a double wishbone. It's not as pure and we complain about it, but there are good reasons to use struts and there are lots of examples of very good sports cars that run them at one or both ends.
Expense, complication, durability, and short of custom Ultra4 type suspension, or a real beefy TTB, you're not going to get the articulation. If I was building a KOH rig, and had Monster's money, damn skippy I'd be having a custom, super skookum, super expensive IFS rig built, but only for the amount of time I can make up with, "hot nasty badass speed" in the desert sections. If there are no desert sections, and I'm building a rock bouncer, serious trail rig, or a W.E.Rock rig, SAS my new Bronco!
That second paragraph, is almost exactly what I said several posts above you, totally in agreement.
I don't know you Keith, but I respect your knowledge on a lot of things, but IFS is to capitulate the customers who want a nicer ride on the road and inferior to a stick axle off the road, doesn't mean it won't work, or even work well, but a solid axle will work better.
Better late than never!
bigdaddylee82 said:Keith Tanner said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
Ultra4 has solid axle rigs because 1) that's what a lot of people know, 2) they're easier and 3) problems in the rocks with slow you down more than you can make up speed in the desert. But IFS rigs won KOH for three years before another solid axle rig took the 2020 race. So it's not quite so cut and dried. And seriously, while every off-roader thinks they're doing KOH - they're not. Only the real fringe is going to find this a problem, a much larger group will appreciate the improved wheel control.
It's like a sports car with struts instead of a double wishbone. It's not as pure and we complain about it, but there are good reasons to use struts and there are lots of examples of very good sports cars that run them at one or both ends.
Expense, complication, durability, and short of custom Ultra4 type suspension, or a real beefy TTB, you're not going to get the articulation. If I was building a KOH rig, and had Monster's money, damn skippy I'd be having a custom, super skookum, super expensive IFS rig built, but only for the amount of time I can make up with, "hot nasty badass speed" in the desert sections. If there are no desert sections, and I'm building a rock bouncer, serious trail rig, or a W.E.Rock rig, SAS my new Bronco!
That second paragraph, is almost exactly what I said several posts above you, totally in agreement.
I don't know you Keith, but I respect your knowledge on a lot of things, but IFS is to capitulate the customers who want a nicer ride on the road and inferior to a stick axle off the road, doesn't mean it won't work, or even work well, but a solid axle will work better.
Truth be told, if you take all the miles driven currently by the most off road capable vehicle currently available (Jeep Wrangler), 99.9% of those miles are on a road. The new Bronco, no matter how capable it is, will also be the same. In that situation IFS is worlds better than a solid axle. The Wrangler drives like ass, and I would never trade my FJ for one.
D2W said:The Wrangler drives like ass, and I would never trade my FJ for one.
I, personally, don't hate on the Wrangler. That said, 3 of my JL friends, whenever they ride in my FJ TT, always comment how smooth and nice the ride is.
bigdaddylee82 said:MrChaos said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
what happened with pirate?
Corporate greed. When Lance sold the site to Vertical Scope (VS) years ago, the forum membership was assured "nothing would change." Well, slowly but surely, things changed, 99% of the paying members, including myself, left. Over the years VS ignored the community, added more and more ads, started adding advertisements as thread titles even, the board was updated to a whole new format, Pirate's format was lost forever. The final nail in the coffin though, when asked for proof that the percentage of blue star member's subscription payment was going toward the Blue Ribbon Coalition to support land use issues, VS couldn't/wouldn't provide any. Some members with connections with the BRC did some research, and there were no records of any payment from VS, so it seems VS had been pocketing the money.
Thankfully a long time Pirate member named Austin, is pretty tech savvy, and saw the writing on the wall, he made irate4x4.com to be like OG Pirate. There's way more details, but Austin has covered his legal bases, has downloaded everything from Pirate, cataloged it, and if you created some old threads on Pirate you want migrated to Irate, Austin can oblige.
VS isn't happy about it, many reports of people getting banned for advertising irate4x4, they've put a filter where every time you type irate4x4 it automatically changes to pirate4x4.
(off topic rant)
It's vertical scope. They bought up every car related web site they could with more than 5k members. Corral, Dakota-Durango, turbo dodge, et al... I think they bought yellowbullet too, but the owner still "owns" it. Same song and dance of nothing changing. Only things that changed were more bots adding bullE36 M3 "content" and increasing ads for nothing relevant to the site. I hope they die in a violent death of a spilled vat of rotten poutine. They ruined a lot of viable and valuable car related content on the interwebs.
(end off topic rant)
On topic rant- POFS. Ford may as well built a Blazer. Or call it a Bronco III.
Ranger50 said:bigdaddylee82 said:MrChaos said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
what happened with pirate?
Corporate greed. When Lance sold the site to Vertical Scope (VS) years ago, the forum membership was assured "nothing would change." Well, slowly but surely, things changed, 99% of the paying members, including myself, left. Over the years VS ignored the community, added more and more ads, started adding advertisements as thread titles even, the board was updated to a whole new format, Pirate's format was lost forever. The final nail in the coffin though, when asked for proof that the percentage of blue star member's subscription payment was going toward the Blue Ribbon Coalition to support land use issues, VS couldn't/wouldn't provide any. Some members with connections with the BRC did some research, and there were no records of any payment from VS, so it seems VS had been pocketing the money.
Thankfully a long time Pirate member named Austin, is pretty tech savvy, and saw the writing on the wall, he made irate4x4.com to be like OG Pirate. There's way more details, but Austin has covered his legal bases, has downloaded everything from Pirate, cataloged it, and if you created some old threads on Pirate you want migrated to Irate, Austin can oblige.
VS isn't happy about it, many reports of people getting banned for advertising irate4x4, they've put a filter where every time you type irate4x4 it automatically changes to pirate4x4.
(off topic rant)
It's vertical scope. They bought up every car related web site they could with more than 5k members. Corral, Dakota-Durango, turbo dodge, et al... I think they bought yellowbullet too, but the owner still "owns" it. Same song and dance of nothing changing. Only things that changed were more bots adding bullE36 M3 "content" and increasing ads for nothing relevant to the site. I hope they die in a violent death of a spilled vat of rotten poutine. They ruined a lot of viable and valuable car related content on the interwebs.(end off topic rant)
And a lot of none car related forums. And ruined them.
Since we're on this topic of suspension relative to off road performance,
What's the style of suspension that Razors and what not use? They are IFS up front, but super huge A-Arms, if you want to call them that. Trailing arm rear, if I'm not mistaken.
I've always been curious of what IFS factory vehicles has the longest Control Arms. I would assume the Raptor. I know on my Tundra, that's a limiting factor - the control arms are pretty short which makes for some harsh performance off-road.
I'll also say that living out here in the west and spend a fair amount of time offroad, I rarely see anyone "crawling". It's all about covering ground quickly, comfortably, and in control.
It'd be interesting to see if the Bronco ends up with longer arms than the Ranger. The Bronco definitely looks to have a wider track.
In reply to pheller :
Are you including Ford's TTB front end? The Dana 44 version wins hands down if so.
pheller said:Since we're on this topic of suspension relative to off road performance,
What's the style of suspension that Razors and what not use? They are IFS up front, but super huge A-Arms, if you want to call them that. Trailing arm rear, if I'm not mistaken.
I've always been curious of what IFS factory vehicles has the longest Control Arms. I would assume the Raptor. I know on my Tundra, that's a limiting factor - the control arms are pretty short which makes for some harsh performance off-road.
I'll also say that living out here in the west and spend a fair amount of time offroad, I rarely see anyone "crawling". It's all about covering ground quickly, comfortably, and in control.
It'd be interesting to see if the Bronco ends up with longer arms than the Ranger. The Bronco definitely looks to have a wider track.
I have never really been into crawling. High speed Baja runs are my thing when I am not in a sports car or on two wheels.
last 15 months I did 5 trips to Moab, hungry valley, rowher flats etc multiple times to get into crawling with my FJ TT. Was boring as hell. I just didn't enjoy it. Not bashing it, but it isn't for me
my 2 seater rzr was getting pretty old and to share the hobby with bigger family picked this up at Berts last week. Should be fun at Glamis/rocky point/baja which are our main destination with the toys.
this was my tundras last tow before it headed to its new owner 2 days ago
This and the Cybertruck are the two best looking vehicles I've seen or been excited for, period.
The Base 2-door looks phenominal. Ford's succeeded in making it look good on steelies, which honestly is a testament to their ability. I don't even know if I'd want the Sasquatch package because it just looks so good at it's base! The only minimum I can honestly see is you have to go up in model just to get heated seats, which at this point is just a sin.
Ranger50 said:bigdaddylee82 said:MrChaos said:bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
Even Ultra4 has way more solid axle rigs than IFS.
There's a fella over on irate4x4 (where everyone landed after the pirate4x4 mass exodus) claiming his is getting SASed right away.
what happened with pirate?
Corporate greed.
(off topic rant)
It's vertical scope.(end off topic rant)
Kinda reminds me of what happened to the Something Awful forums, though theirs started more with a fanbase that was quickly becoming more and more acidic and poor mods.
mr2s2000elise said:pheller said:Since we're on this topic of suspension relative to off road performance,
What's the style of suspension that Razors and what not use? They are IFS up front, but super huge A-Arms, if you want to call them that. Trailing arm rear, if I'm not mistaken.
I've always been curious of what IFS factory vehicles has the longest Control Arms. I would assume the Raptor. I know on my Tundra, that's a limiting factor - the control arms are pretty short which makes for some harsh performance off-road.
I'll also say that living out here in the west and spend a fair amount of time offroad, I rarely see anyone "crawling". It's all about covering ground quickly, comfortably, and in control.
It'd be interesting to see if the Bronco ends up with longer arms than the Ranger. The Bronco definitely looks to have a wider track.
I have never really been into crawling. High speed Baja runs are my thing when I am not in a sports car or on two wheels.
last 15 months I did 5 trips to Moab, hungry valley, rowher flats etc multiple times to get into crawling with my FJ TT. Was boring as hell. I just didn't enjoy it. Not bashing it, but it isn't for me
my 2 seater rzr was getting pretty old and to share the hobby with bigger family picked this up at Berts last week. Should be fun at Glamis/rocky point/baja which are our main destination with the toys.
this was my tundras last tow before it headed to its new owner 2 days ago
Damn, that RZR looks bigger than your tundra. If I was going to get into serious off-roading a RZR would be my choice.
D2W said:
Damn, that RZR looks bigger than your tundra. If I was going to get into serious off-roading a RZR would be my choice.
That is why Tundra went buh bye :) I have a toy hauler + RV getting ready to be picked up. No Tundra is rated to haul 15,000 lbs, sadly.
Yes the Turbo RZR should be fun!
bigdaddylee82 said:but IFS is to capitulate the customers who want a nicer ride on the road and inferior to a stick axle off the road, doesn't mean it won't work, or even work well, but a solid axle will work better.
Nope. That's not the reason it's IFS. The reason it's IFS is that's what the Ranger is that it's based on. Ford made the obvious, sensible, decision that they didn't want to spend millions of $$'s to engineer a solid front axle that's inferior to the IFS for 99% of customers 100% of the time. The reason that the Ranger is IFS is that's what's wanted and needed for the Ranger market. The F150 is IFS for the same reason as the Ranger. The only reason the Super Duty isn't IFS is because that's what marketing say the customer wants, not because it's better.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :
And that has me looking at the pictures of the chassis and thinking of a lovely little single cab short box Ranger on 35's from the factory. With the 7 speed manual. That's the kind of thing that would keep me up at night.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
LOL, if I didn't know you were nuts in a good way (Grosh, Ferdinand, OLOA, 964 and older things like the CTSV Wagon and Fergus) I'd conclude you were simply certifiable.
I have enough Moab time to know about the benefits of a stick front axle. There are three 4wd stick axle trucks in my fleet right now :) No, wait, four. And I've had a couple of IFS trucks. All but one have been to Moab.
But Moab rocks are not what all off-road is. It's a subset, where max wheel articulation is paramount. For bombing down a rutted dirt road or climbing the mountain trails near here, I'd prefer IFS. Heck, I could run a number of Moab trails more comfortably with IFS. So I think it's the right choice for the Bronco for both the majority of off-road use and of course the real market for the vehicle: mall terrain.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :
GRM really is just Monty Python's Argument Clinic, huh?
Oh, one more thing on the IFS thing. While the this and every other forum, magazine, youtuber, mommy blogger and sales manager see the Wrangler and Bronco going after the same market, internally Ford from the very start saw the Bronco as having one very significant difference from the Wrangler. The Wrangler is all about rock crawling for it's image and advertising. The Bronco has always been more about overlanding and the journey rather than Moab. Ford people have been going to Jeep and Bronco meets and events over the country for the last few years.
bigdaddylee82 said:In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :
GRM really is just Monty Python's Argument Clinic, huh?
Sorry dude, I feel like I opened the IFS vs. solid axle floodgates here. My bad.
Heck, even the video I posted is signaling this. They've got images of Broncos going sideways through the desert, racing across open flats, etc.
Jeep often shows their vehicles climbing rock slabs and bouncing all over the place. Lately, pretty much all of their marketing has been "open air". I just saw the (clearly poking at Bronco) tease of the 392 Wrangler. Jeep believes they are going to win this fight not by adding suspension better suited for off-road comfort and high-speed stability, but instead by adding a big honkin engine.
Speaking of a great marketing battle video: Jeep just released the tease of the electricified Wrangler - in a video with "sleeping" horses. I'll give them this one, the Bronco should've been designed with PHEV in mind. Whether Jeep actually gets the Wrangler 4xE to market is another story.
I know of a lot of buyers who have no interest in anything not hybrid or electric, so the Rivian, Cybertruck, Model X, Atlis, and a host of new PHEV SUVs (Rav4 and the like) are more interesting to them than the only-gas Bronco (or Jeep for that matter). If Ford can post up some decent MPG numbers they might win some converts, but in general, more and more consumers are interested in battery powered (if only for a few miles) transit.
A PHEV Bronco would be pretty rad, even if it only had 10 miles of EV range.
I love the new Bronco. It looks a lot better than I thought it would. I definitely think that Ford has it priced well, especially for the base model. I have only one issue, and this is something I think they could have done to give them a leg up on the Wrangler. 5-seats in the two door. I don't want the longer length/extra doors of the 4-door model. If I bought a Bronco, it would be as a secondary vehicle, so 4 doors aren't need plus they look kinda staid in comparison to the two door. Same thing with the Wrangler/Wrangler Unlimited/Gladiator. The
I keep on looking for something to carry 5 with some top-down ability. Would love a manual. I'm ok with something truck based for this want. Isuzu Amigo/Rodeo Sport was a 5 seater, but trying to find a 4wd/5sp/V6 is next to impossible and it wasn't fully topless (just the back seat/sunroof over fronts). The two door Bronco would have been perfect...
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