HiTempguy wrote:slefain wrote: The "social" aspect of public school is a meat grinder that teaches kids that the only important thing in life is to be attractive or popular (or both).You mean like... in REAL LIFE?
Life is not a popularity contest. I'd rather be disliked for being who I am than be liked for trying to be who I'm not.
slefain wrote:HiTempguy wrote:Life is not a popularity contest. I'd rather be disliked for being who I am than be liked for trying to be who I'm not.slefain wrote: The "social" aspect of public school is a meat grinder that teaches kids that the only important thing in life is to be attractive or popular (or both).You mean like... in REAL LIFE?
You are both exaggerating to make your points. Of course "popularity" isn't the most important thing in the world, but the skills that lead to it, like the ability to build and maintain relationships with other people, are very important to being a successful adult. Going to a public school with hundreds of other kids from a wide range of backgrounds and situations isn't the only way to develop those skills, but it's a good one.
slefain wrote: Life is not a popularity contest.
I strongly disagree, but that is based on my own personal opinions and experiences. It has been demonstrated to me, time and again, that the people who get ahead because of their true value (read: skills) are much fewer than those who get ahead in spite of their skills (or lack thereof).
Being able to schmooze is #1, plain and simple. Or being the government, that basically gives you carte blanche. Which is the exact reason being a politician is such a gold mine, because it combines both!
HiTempguy wrote:slefain wrote: Life is not a popularity contest.I strongly disagree, but that is based on my own personal opinions and experiences. It has been demonstrated to me, time and again, that the people who get ahead because of their true value (read: skills) are much fewer than those who get ahead in spite of their skills (or lack thereof). Being able to schmooze is #1, plain and simple. Or being the government, that basically gives you carte blanche. Which is the exact reason being a politician is such a gold mine, because it combines both!
Dude.. come on.
HiTempguy, have you ever been involved with a fortune 500 company on the operations side of the business? Because I can tell you that that is absolutely not true for the 3 that I have "insider knowledge" of. Popularity means little to nothing.
mtn wrote: HiTempguy, have you ever been involved with a fortune 500 company on the operations side of the business? Because I can tell you that that is absolutely not true for the 3 that I have "insider knowledge" of. Popularity means little to nothing.
I've been involved with many companies (as them being our clients), and one thing that is reflected time and again is incompetence of higher up individuals that have no right to be there due to skills. What a company being a fortune 500 company (besides you trying to sound like a big deal, I can start name dropping clients of ours and waving my e-peen around to if that were to actually do anything for this conversation which it won't) has to do with this conversation is beyond me.
I know it shatters the american dream, and I'm not saying you can't get ahead by being good at what you do (of course you will) but you won't get ahead if you aren't popular. Pretty straightforward.
HiTempguy wrote:mtn wrote: HiTempguy, have you ever been involved with a fortune 500 company on the operations side of the business? Because I can tell you that that is absolutely not true for the 3 that I have "insider knowledge" of. Popularity means little to nothing.I've been involved with many companies (as them being our clients), and one thing that is reflected time and again is incompetence of higher up individuals that have no right to be there due to skills. What a company being a fortune 500 company (besides you trying to sound like a big deal, I can start name dropping clients of ours and waving my e-peen around to if that were to actually do anything for this conversation which it won't) has to do with this conversation is beyond me. I know it shatters the american dream, and I'm not saying you can't get ahead by being good at what you do (of course you will) but you won't get ahead if you aren't popular. Pretty straightforward.
So it sounds like you were involved with them from a sales/front line perspective, rather than behind the curtains?
I suppose it didn't need to be "Fortune 500". I could have said "large company". By the way, are you this hostile in real life?
Tom_Spangler wrote:
You are both exaggerating to make your points. Of course "popularity" isn't the most important thing in the world, but the skills that lead to it, like the ability to build and maintain relationships with other people, are very important to being a successful adult. Going to a public school with hundreds of other kids from a wide range of backgrounds and situations isn't the only way to develop those skills, but it's a good one.
Exactly.
mtn wrote: I suppose it didn't need to be "Fortune 500". I could have said "large company". By the way, are you this hostile in real life?
Are you this snide, pompous and condescending in real life?
HiTempguy wrote:mtn wrote: I suppose it didn't need to be "Fortune 500". I could have said "large company". By the way, are you this hostile in real life?Are you this snide, pompous and condescending in real life?
Whoa - time to step back guys. Have a beer.
HiTempguy wrote:mtn wrote: I suppose it didn't need to be "Fortune 500". I could have said "large company". By the way, are you this hostile in real life?Are you this snide, pompous and condescending in real life?
I'll take that as a yes.
I'm out.
time to close
As a teacher I will give you my observations. I don't teach gen ed. I'm a sped teacher. So in the fall I can always tell the Gen ed kids who have been home schooled through middle school or went to online school because they are socially out of touch. They always befriend my kids for some strange reason and like to hangout in my room. Now keep in mind I work in the city with a very poor Hispanic population and a lot of gangs. These kids usually take a few beatings and around 10th or 11th grade they mesh. If you do this teach your kid to have a social filter. Without a Social filter your kid will be screwed. Middle school is the pounding of chests, angst and getting familiar with the opposite sex. If a kid does not learn these rituals they will be social outcasts until they figure it out.
"I can always tell the Gen ed kids who have been home schooled through middle school or went to online school because they are socially out of touch." What an asinine statement, it's like saying you can tell someone's gay by looking at them. Right.
As to the socialization question, there are plenty of kids in public/private schools who "don't fit in" to the social hierarchy, they are outsiders. It's not restricted to home-school kids.
peabodysc wrote: "I can always tell the Gen ed kids who have been home schooled through middle school or went to online school because they are socially out of touch." What an asinine statement, it's like saying you can tell someone's gay by looking at them. Right. As to the socialization question, there are plenty of kids in public/private schools who "don't fit in" to the social hierarchy, they are outsiders. It's not restricted to home-school kids.
You cant tell someone is gay by looking at them, but I can look at a room full of students and tell who has social skills and who doesn't. I guess it comes from working with autistic kids or something. I'm not talking about don't fit in. I'm talking about socialization. There are whole groups of students who don't fit in you are right about that, but most of them have social skills.
There are also socially maladjusted students for instance that think that a girl who is just being nice to them is their girlfriend and wont let it die until administration is involved. That great moment when a class is learning about the Holocaust and the kid asks the only Jewish girl in the school if anyone in her family ever drove a VW cause Hitler came up with the idea. You know a kid that talks about what a pain in the ass illegal immigrants are while sitting at a table full of Mexicans. You know social skills. These are some of the stories from this year. Then the fun part (which I don't get to participate in, but I wish I did) is explaining to the parents why their kids got the E36 M3 kicked out of him and them looking confused.
Again I am not against home school at all if you have an advanced kid it is the way to go but get them involved in church groups or traveling sports teams or boy scouts and usually home school kids can play on sports teams for whatever district they are in so that's a good way to socialize them.
xd wrote: You cant tell someone is gay by looking at them, but I can look at a room full of students and tell who has social skills and who doesn't. I guess it comes from working with autistic kids or something. I'm not talking about don't fit in. I'm talking about socialization. There are whole groups of students who don't fit in you are right about that, but most of them have social skills.
I agree.... with everything but the gay part. You can't always tell, but 95% of the time my gaydar is spot-on.
But the social skills part, agreed.
That is not to say that all public school kids are socially adjusted and all home-school kids are misfits, but I can agree that the setup is valid.
Allow me to use an analogy... you can look over a group of dogs and clearly spot the Pit Bull and the Lab, but it doesn't mean that the Pit is going to rip off your arm, nor does it mean the Lab won't. By that analogy I'm saying that home-school kids aren't all socially maladjusted, but also it does not mean that public school will magically fix the kids with social awkwardness.
Let me put it this way... Deciding on public vs private vs home school is almost always poorly made. You have parents of brilliant children who refuse to accept that their children need more intense education in favor of building a pool or buying that mid-life-crisis Porsche. You have parents of dumb-as-a-sno-cone kids who will do anything to shove them into private school in hopes that the "superior" education will cover up their guilt for producing a genetically inferior child, and then you have the..... I could go on forever.
As a therapist and educator, I see it all.
For you folks who homeschool..
Why not send your kids to public school AND be involved in their schooling?
They'll still learn how to interact with other humans properly and you get to have a hand in their education.
My buddy's kids are in a program like this, they go to real school two days a week and the rest of the time they're homeschooled. They're doing better than they were in full-time school and they still get the social interaction.
I've only known two people my age who were homeschooled, they are brothers and are the most socially awkward people I've ever met. Their older borther is just fine, he went to public school.
Let's face it, we've all been through the education system. Elementary school is only there to teach you to interact with others properly, not get your ass kicked and throw the red ball at the fat kid during gym class..
Trans_Maro wrote: For you folks who homeschool.. Why not send your kids to public school AND be involved in their schooling?
Because there a lot better ways to get that social interaction
Because public school is fraught with all sorts of bad behavior, from bullying to drugs
Because religion is very important to folks and public schools are essentially forbidden from talking about it
Because co-ops and other things exist to have some harder to teach subjects available without resorting to a public education system
Because some feel that public schools should not exist and sending your kids to one doesn't make a lot of sense
I could go on... There are people with different (yes still valid) values than you have. Dozens of my friends kids are homeschooled - all that I have met are doing very well. Socially and educationally.
Do you teach punctuation at your school?
I'm following this thread with interest - we're on the fence on this issue, but have two years yet to decide.
xd wrote: You cant tell someone is gay by looking at them, but I can look at a room full of students and tell who has social skills and who doesn't. I guess it comes from working with autistic kids or something. I'm not talking about don't fit in. I'm talking about socialization. There are whole groups of students who don't fit in you are right about that, but most of them have social skills. There are also socially maladjusted students for instance that think that a girl who is just being nice to them is their girlfriend and wont let it die until administration is involved. That great moment when a class is learning about the Holocaust and the kid asks the only Jewish girl in the school if anyone in her family ever drove a VW cause Hitler came up with the idea. You know a kid that talks about what a pain in the ass illegal immigrants are while sitting at a table full of Mexicans. You know social skills. These are some of the stories from this year. Then the fun part (which I don't get to participate in, but I wish I did) is explaining to the parents why their kids got the E36 M3 kicked out of him and them looking confused. Again I am not against home school at all if you have an advanced kid it is the way to go but get them involved in church groups or traveling sports teams or boy scouts and usually home school kids can play on sports teams for whatever district they are in so that's a good way to socialize them.
In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn:
Nope, I teach kids with extremely high needs. I teach them to read and live independently in the community despite whatever disability they have. Mine happen to be grammar, punctuation, spelling and tact. We get along fine that's why I have teachers aids and its summer vacation. On a side note my wife had a doctorate in linguistics and my writing really pisses her off.
You can read all you want to on this topic but I feel the truth of the matter is that nothing we can tell you really matters besides these three things:
Who you are as a parent(s)
Who your specific child is
Your community
You need to know that there is a lot of impassioned people on both sides. My In-laws were not happy when we said we were going to start homeschooling. Now that my kids have done it for 3 years they are happy that we do it.
As far as socialization, I find that to be simply a product of the parent. Kids in public school are thrust into situations where they have a select pool of people to get along with. I sign my kids up for extracurricular activities that thrust them into similar situations. My public school wife was more sheltered than my buddy who was homeschooled. Homeschooled kids generally have to work harder to make friends and so the skills of making friends can develop actually stronger than normal kids. Or they could not. It depends on the parent, the kids, and the community.
I will say, our local school district did a lot of experimenting on me and my wife as far as learning goes. She ended up with massive gaps in her education. That was one of the primary reasons we decided to homeschool. If you try it for a year, your kids will probably not be forever ruined.
I will conclude by saying finding unbiased information on the topic is really difficult. People tend to remember the outliers. You can send me messages for more info. I will probably not check back in this thread. Too much vitriol.
I accept the charge that I am biased. I absolutely am, and make no apologies for it.
Which is EXACTLY why my viewpont is relevant to this thread. Let's look again at the original post:
BoostedBrandon wrote: ... and I wanna hear from those of you here who have done this.
With all due respect, gentlemen, Mr. Boosted SPECIFICALLY asked for input from people who have home schooled.
I respect your right to have a different opinion and to make different decisions with your life and your kids, but frankly your criticisms are flounders and completely out of place in this thread.
Socialization...
Reading this thread makes me think some of you actually believe there is some redeeming value to knowing how to smoke a joint or understand what a BJ is.
I guess it is a GOOD thing to get everyone to sink to the lowest common denominator. 
When my daughter she entered college, honestly, she was a bit naive. I was (truthfully) a little uncomfortable with it. She didn't know what a lot of worldly stuff was, because that's what she CHOSE to be (I most certainly did NOT force it).
Her friends respected her, and protected her. Someone would make an off-color joke (which she did not understand), she'd ask for an explanation, and they would say, "Trust me, you don't want to know". She was OK with that, and so were they. To the tremendous credit of her peers, they were very respectful of the choices she has made with her life, and helped her excel in her gifts, without compromising the things that are important to her.
Sadly, not at all like this thread.
She became president of 3 different associations on campus (including the swing dance club), graduated 4.0 with a double major, is fluent in 4 languages, has lived and taught in 3 countries (including a year in Korea with 800 students), is working on her Masters, and currently has an offer from the State Department. She is extremely well liked with great leadership potential.
Too bad she didn't learn what a BJ is when she was in middle school!
She has offered to give her perspective on socialization to anyone who is honestly interested in listening. PM me.
Cult...
If being part of a movement you believe in that many people are passionate about where you get the opportunity to positively influence people for future generations defines a cult, then sign me up. I guess that makes me part of the baseball coaches cult too.
If the "cult" word was thrown out because of religious expression, I understand where that opinion comes from, but disagree.
A large percentage of people begin home schooling for religious reasons. Most who stick with it, eventually no longer consider that to be the primary motivation.
Most long term home schoolers begin to see the primary advantages are about avoiding age segregation, excellence in education, and the ability to mold the school to fit the particular needs of the student, instead of forcing the student through a one-size-fits-all pattern to make him fit the school. While most retain their foundational core religious beliefs, it almost always becomes a less important factor in choosing to home school as time goes on.
Home schooling is where the extreme left and the extreme right meet. There are no moderate home schoolers. You MUST be passioiinate about something to succeed. I spend much more time defending the rights of my extreme liberal friends or my Muslim friends to home school their students as they see fit than I do my conservative Christian friends.
If this is a cult, it is an extremely diverse one! 
All I have to say is that I am glad I am in one of the best school districts in the country.
Long ago my city voted for an extra property tax to fund our school district. We regularly exceed the rest of CA by at least 25% in testing scores. My kids' teachers have always been great, willing to meet with us, and give my kids the attention they need.
Home school was thought of at one time, but once we started the kids in local schools we realized they were already getting a great education.
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