Learn Me: maintaining a "healthy" bodyweight.

   I've always been a gym rat/exercise fanatic in one form or another. I've been lifting weights for just shy of 30 years but, aside from a few short periods of my life, I've never been very lean. I was in decent shape in the early 2000's when I weighed around 170 and was boxing quite a bit and dabbling in MMA while still lifting weights. Most recently from early '17 to early '18 I dieted down to 160 lbs for a Judo competition (I had visible abs for the first time in my life at the age of 38) but, I got injured (again) and had to pull out. I slowly swelled back up to a soft 200. My bodyweight has always fluctuated wildly. Between the periods where I was actually in decent shape I was a fatscular (muscular but fat or vice/versa) 200+ by simply eating when I was hungry and lifting five or six days per week. 


   I feel as though I have yet to fully grasp proper nutrition. From January until May of this year I had been consuming 70 grams of fat, <120 grams of carbs, and >160 grams of protein for a total of around 1,800 calories (+/- depending on protein intake); the same eating strategy I used to hit 160 back in '18. Over the course of those five months, I lost zero weight. I was stuck at 195. I felt good and had decent energy but, I was still fat. In June I gave up altogether, I stopped exercising and ate whatever garbage I wanted. It's tough to keep plugging away when you're working your ass off (weights for an hour followed by 20-30 minutes of cardio), constantly hungry, and yet somehow not losing any weight. I restarted the same eating strategy again in July and continued through August but, beginning in September I said "screw it" and started keto. I almost immediately dropped five pounds of water weight and looked leaner but my energy plummeted to absolute zero so my workouts sucked. Still do.


   A side note, while on the 70/120/160+ eating strategy I was always ALWAYS hungry. Like ravenous. That's one of the things that appeals to me about keto, it brings my hunger level down to where I assume a normal person's would be. I'm not constantly fighting myself to keep from eating.  So, I now weigh 190, my energy level is E36 M3, therefore my workouts are E36 M3 but I'm not constantly thinking about food.


   So, how do the lean, athletic GRMers stay lean and athletic? What am I missing?



   In case anyone is curious, here's my current exercise program:

Day 1:
warm up: walking lunges (200 reps or 1/10 mile), wood choppers, leg raises, lots of stretching, kb halo
leg extensions=5x15
elevated foot split squat=3x10-15
face pull/reverse flye + bodyweight dips=100  reps
landmine/standing db ohp=5x5
pushup complex=100  reps
pressdowns + lateral raises
treadmill/elliptical

Day 2:
warm up: same as day 1 
kb swings=100  reps
single-leg rdl=3x5
chins/pullups=100 reps
rows=3x10-15
curls=3x10-15
farmer's carry=1/10 mile
treadmill/elliptical

Day 3:
same warm up
Turkish get up
kb windmill
heavy bag

Day 4:
same warm up
hex bar deadlifts=EMOM
heavy neutral-grip pulldowns=5x5
dumbell/machine bench press=5x5
kb/dumbell snatch=EMOM
treadmill/elliptical

The cycle repeats. If I feel I'm too sore to lift, I'll repeat day 3 for some active recovery. If I'm really sore I'll ride my bike or go for a walk with my kids and/or wife.
 

200 walking lunges as warm ups 4x a week? Lol-that's awesome. How deep?

Edit for leanness stuff-get lean with stupidly painful calorie reduction and super hard but brief exercise. Then worry about maintaining leanness. 

I'm sure others will have much better info-  but for me I cut our gluten, dairy, and alcohol. I eat a lot of chicken, turkey, rice and veggies. Other than that I distance run 3-4 times a week and also try and hit tbr driving range once a week or so. I don't run very fast but all runs are at least 5 miles and weekend runs can be much longer. I may run an ultra in the spring. 
I've been in CrossFit for more than a decade but still drank beer etc. I stayed at 195 pounds and sore and at times injured in nagging ways.I stopped CrossFit and went back to running at the beginning of the year.  I've been 180 for about 6 months now- maybe longer and feel great. I'm learning long lower heart rates are important for weight loss. An hour or med-faster walking 2x a week would probably help a good bit. Also- you need more calories. Your body is holding on to weight because of the lack of cals. 

Why would you think 190 is too fat?  Are you 4'6"?  You weigh what you weigh.  If you are too large to do things you want to do, lose weight.  If you cannot lose weight without suffering and hating every minute of it, you are at a weight that works for you.

The relevance is strong with this one. Following. 

How tall are you? Height/length makes it easier to look lean.

You're obviously lifting hard, but is there a strategy to the exercises you're doing and when? You're doing leg exercises every single day. I'm wondering if you're over training, or perhaps opting for frequency over intensity.

My strategy has been to lift 4 times per week. I focus on legs/back 2 days and chest/shoulders/triceps two days. I go fairly heavy with my weight selection (barely able to complete the first or second set, then reducing reps as needed).

I do a 5-10 minute cardio warm up at a decent pace (7.5 on the treadmill, sprints on the rowing machine or exercise bike, etc). I'm usually breathing hard at this point. Then I stretch.

I always start with heavy compound lifts (squats and lunges on leg days, bench press/pushups on chest/arm days) to go heavy early and then focus on isolating certain muscles to burnout.

So a typical week might look like:

Day1: Warmup/ stretch

- Squats 3-4 sets starting with ~8 reps and ending with ~4 reps

- Lunges 2-3 sets of 10

-Leg extensions 2-3 sets of 10

- Leg curls 2-3 sets of 10

- Rows (sometimes seated, sometimes inverted, sometimes lawnmowers)

- Lat pull downs/chin ups 2-3 sets of 10

- Bicep curls (already fatigued from the rows and pull downs) 2-3 sets of 8-10

Day 2: Warmup/stretch

- bench press (I like dumbells over barbells so I can go heavier without a spotter, but mixing it up is important) 3-4 sets of ~8 reps to start and ~3-4 reps to finish

- Incline press/seated military press/ Push press 2-3 sets of 8-10 reps

- tricep extensions/dips 2-3 sets of 8-10, but the dips typically end up with fewer reps due to fatigue

- Delt raises 2-3 sets of 8-10 reps

- Abs

Day 3: basic repeat of Day 1. Might mix up the exercises a bit (deadlifts instead of squats, or power cleans instead of lunges, etc)

Day 4: Basic repeat of Day 2. Again, I like to tweak the exercises or mix in some slightly different exercises, especially later in the workout after the core lifts are done.

Ultimately, abs come from the kitchen more than they come from the gym. I don't count calories personally. I do focus on eating a pretty clean diet free of excess sugar, overly processed foods and empty calories. A typical breakfast on a workday is yogurt, granola and berries pretty soon after I wake up. I'm usually pretty hungry 3-4 hrs later so I'll have a snack with some heavier protein ( hard boiled egg, cheese, nut butter, small portion of meat, etc). Lunch is fairly light (small sandwich or big salad). Dinner is small portion of protein with carbs and lots of veggies mixed in (chicken stir fry, etc). I'll allow myself 1 sweet treat per day (it's usually some chocolate or a couple of bites of ice cream after dinner).

I don't drink any soda, coffee or alcohol as they tend to be sneaky calories and I don't really care for them anyway. I do drink about 5-6 20oz bottles of water at work each day, plus a few glasses at home and whatever I get while at the gym. I also try pretty hard to consume 0 calories within a couple of hours of going to bed. My cut off time is 7pm, but adjust for your schedule.

When I'm lifting more frequently, I'm always hungry so I'll allow myself some more freedom with calories. If life is busy and I'm not able to get into the gym as much, then I'm more strict about what I eat and when. I'm 6'1", about to be 37 years old, and this basic approach has kept me between 175-195lbs for the last 2 decades.

   Yes, I am rather short at 5'7".

   The gym where I lift has a nice, padded, 1/10 mile indoor track. The walking lunges are bodyweight only, I touch my back knee to the floor. 


   On days 1 and 2 I keep the weights pretty light but day 4 is entirely for strength building/preservation. 

I have at least one cup of unsweetened bitter bean water every day, usually more.

I also drink diet mt. dew or zero.

Following because this is an interesting discussion.

I have the opposite problem.  I struggle to eat >3000 calories a day, which is what I need to do to gain any weight.

One thing I have seen for myself is that unless you are very carefully adding up your caloric intake, it is really easy to undercount how much you're actually taking in. If you're not doing so already, there are loads of apps that allow you to track your macros. You don't necessarily need to do this if you have already found a way of eating that works for you, but if you're trying to find that sweet spot then it could be helpful to build new habits. For me, I don't track my calories super closely, but I eat the same thing for breakfast and lunch every day that adds up to a total of about 800 calories, so I know that as long as I eat a regular-sized dinner I'll be pretty close to what I need to maintain a relatively lean 195lbs for my 6'3" height. Your workout needs no help from me, I just go to planet fitness :)

When I was weight lifting a lot I was eating a lot. 

I went up from 135 to almost 170.  And I am 5'8".   I was doing cardio in the gym but apparently not enough to keep the fat off.

I started training for riding in the MS150 (150 mile bike ride over two days, fund raiser for Multiple Sclerosis).

I was riding 20 miles 3 times a week averaging 18 to 20mph on a Schwinn Paramount road bike.  Also going on 60 mile rides every other Sunday.   

 I went down to 145 in 3 months.      Bike riding will take off the pounds if you have the time to go decent distances at the speeds when wind resistance comes into play ( more than about 15 mph).    Hills are also great for this.

   I'm seeing a pattern. Those that have achieved a lower bodyweight seem to have prioritized cardio over weights. It looks like it might be time for me to follow suit.

Does anyone track their macros? I was using myfitnesspal but I've gotten out of the habit.

I'm currently on 3rd shift which definitely doesn't help. I'm considering cautiously adding in some oats, beans or quinoa for a few carbs. I need some energy! My glycogen stores are depleted! Lol

The_Jed said:

   I'm seeing a pattern. Those that have achieved a lower bodyweight seem to have prioritized cardio over weights. It looks like it might be time for me to follow suit.

 

 

Does anyone track their macros? I was using myfitnesspal but I've gotten out of the habit.

I barely do E36 M3 for cardio.  Mostly weight.  This is bad though, cardio is good for your heart/cardiovascular system, which I should prioritize.

I track everything in myfitnesspal, which suuuuuuuuuuuuucks, but its better than full manual.  At the moment I don't target individual macros as much as I should, I struggle with just getting enough calories.

For reference I am around 6ft, 181lbs, 13% body fat.

In reply to The_Jed :

I'm also 5'7" and 195-200lbs. Where do you carry your weight? When I want to slim up I eat less carbs and sugar and maintain my typical workout schedule and I'll usually lose 5-10lbs and it will be from around my midsection. I have a big muscular butt and thighs and they weigh a lot lol. 

I notice that your workouts aren't focusing on a specific body location; everything seems full body, and everything is high rep.

To set a baseline, I workout 5 times a week and I don't focus on it nearly as much as I should (I don't calorie count). But I'm 5' 10" at about ~190lbs. I've begun biking to my gym about 2-3 miles away from home which serves as my warm-up, I typically do that at least 3 times a week instead of just driving. I'm also a nurse, but I don't specialize.

I BELIEVE, that you're draining too much glycogen from the cells and going Keto is about the worst thing you could do. I don't like Keto diets at all; they WORK sure, but they were never intended for long-term use and were designed for children suffering from epilepsy. The ketone's produced are high-energy sterol fats, but there's a reason why the human body evolved to use carbohydrates- they take time to break down, add oxidative stress (free radicals), and strain the kidneys since all fat and protein metabolism produces creatine. Frankly to me, they're a fad diet; intermittent fasting is showing equal benefits without dietary restrictions or without turbo-screwing your cholesterol.

Now for you, I believe that in not taking in enough carbs you're both not giving your muscles both too little energy to work, but also too little energy to properly replace glycogen stores. This imbalance is dropping your metabolism, which you see is making you feel like crap- but also is having a double-edge sword, because now your body is constantly in a starvation state where it tries to hoard all the simple sugars it can get for this work. If you're like me when I did a "light" keto, I hoarded all fat RIGHT on my stomach, and this is because your liver is condensing it there for easy access and conversion into glycogen later.

I'd argue:

1. Listen to your body and end keto. Eating carbs doesn't mean eating only the simple things.
2. If you want to keep thin, calorie count.

... Right away, and I can post some things about intermitted fasting if you'd like (you really only have to do it once a month). I'd also change up what you're doing; bodyweight is cool, but I can't help but be the brofessor  and say that having NO "power" or high-weight/low rep excersise isn't also somewhat a bad idea since your work is all focused on endurance right now. I'm not saying do a 5x5, but I AM Thinking that without having one set of that and no focused work (Monday chest & triceps, Tuesday legs, ect) is draining everything too much daily; but you clearly have more experience there than I do, and I'm not back in martial arts yet so grain of salt lol

The_Jed said:

   I'm seeing a pattern. Those that have achieved a lower bodyweight seem to have prioritized cardio over weights. It looks like it might be time for me to follow suit.

Definitely not me. I do a cardio warmup to loosen my body up and raise my heart rate, but in general I view cardio as punishment. And cardio is usually the first thing I'll cut out of my routine if I'm pinched for time.

What I do focus on with either cardio or weights is high effort/intensity, low duration. So sprints instead of distance, or heavy weight/lower reps. I give my self a couple of minutes to rest in between sets too because I usually need it. Lots of the sports I did growing up (football, soccer, ultimate frisbee) were similar in that you'd have intermittent bursts where you'd go all out, and then return to a lower pace so it feels very natural to me compared to distance running, swimming or cycling. If I were really trying to cut the last couple % of body fat away I might be more diligent about the cardio, but I'd still be prioritizing the weights and higher intensity work over just spending a bunch of time on an elliptical or something.

The only times that I have personally been on the "lean side" have been training for long distance running (marathon, or trying for PB half marathons). Generally getting up to 30+ mi a week with some of the weekday runs being very speed based and hard miles. Mix in 2-3 days of active weights that I normally do and I'd be 10lbs down compared to a more leisurely 20mi week. When doing that I'd be about 180lb/5'9 vs my 195ish right now. Based on that some questions...

Do you spend more than an hour in the gym? How much of your time is resting? What does your hr get up to during the workout? I have noticed that since I have stopped going to a "lifting gym" and just use the available free weights at work I can do a hard workout in 30-40min that is pretty effective and skip the cardio that day. 

When you do spend treadmill/elliptical time, how hard do you push it? How much of your total time is cardio? Or is it just cooldown?

I can't translate that calorie mix well, but personally eat 2500+ daily but it's all low ingredient count food, lots of beans/chicken for dinner, fairly low dairy, lots of veggies and nuts. My only vices are coffee (black mostly) and peanut butter cups daily. 

Offhand though I wouldn't call your situation much out of shape, maybe it's more of optomizing your time spent for max benefit. I don't think a lot of lifting does that, at least not for me. I'm trying to get back into shape a bit post having covid this summer, so looking forward to other people's tips.

The_Jed said:

   Yes, I am rather short at 5'7".

   The gym where I lift has a nice, padded, 1/10 mile indoor track. The walking lunges are bodyweight only, I touch my back knee to the floor. 


   On days 1 and 2 I keep the weights pretty light but day 4 is entirely for strength building/preservation. 

With your reps/volume I would imagine you are not in desperate need of changing bodyweight for health reasons. You complete a high number of repetitions of bodyweight exercises that range from less influenced by bodyweight (pushups), to more influenced by bodyweight (lunges), to completely decimated by excess bodyweight (chin ups/pull ups). You do all this as a normal workout, not a "challenge" like a Bert or Murph that most hard exercisers consider an accomplishment to finish. Your body performs at an impressively high level.

That said, there are definitely cosmetic benefits, and it looks like longevity benefits to being lighter and leaner. 

I prefer losing body fat to be a dedicated process. The energy deficit required to get lean destroys performance-especially high rep large muscle group performance. If you just cut food intake and try living in that deficit with no other changes you get the worst of both worlds-poor workouts, and poor fat loss. It sounds like you have tried aggressive calorie restriction without any other changes and had about those results. I would suggest more rest , shorter heavier workouts, and aggressive calorie restriction. During the fat loss phase I would suggest increasing resistance on every exercise until you cant complete more than 3 minutes continuous on the exercise (preferably more like 1-2 min), getting those lunge reps down and keeping them away from your non leg days, and adding some scheduled rest days. I would prefer you rest a full day between each session, but you may mentally need the exercise. If that is the case then make sure the in-between days exercise is not pushing over that threshold into hindering your recovery from your hard workout days (stick to steady state stuff that doesn't require rest periods). 

For the calorie restriction amount and macros you are going to have to find your comfort zone. You probably want a bit lower calories than the 1800 you were eating, but starting at 1800 calories and working down 100 a week until the weight starts falling off is a decent strategy. You should lose a quick 3-5 lbs in the first few days as your body dumps intestinal volume, water, glycogen stores, etc. Then the real loss starts.  I know I will get E36 M3 for this, but if you aren't losing more than 2lbs a week its not worth your effort. 2lbs is a bad week, you should average around 3. Weigh every morning, after taking a leak, with the same amount of clothing (or nude). Use either an electric scale certified for competition weigh ins, or a balance scale. Weighing daily in the morning is your most accurate feedback for whether your fat loss is progressing as it should. There will be days where the weight makes no sense, but having 7 days a week of feedback makes it easy to know which measurements were garbage.

Our body is capable of burning fat incredibly quickly, we just aren't very good at telling it to.

Following along. When I broke my arms, I started losing muscle. So, in the first month in casts, I dropped a few pounds. However, over the past 10 months I gained a couple of inches on my waist and wound up weighing about 5 pounds more than I did before the break.


 

I am not a doctor, but on the hunger side have you ever been tested for quick emptying or thyroid issues?

I'm following. I recently switched from heavy weight lifting focus to more endurance sports to keep things fun.  I initially lost a bunch of weight but has been interesting lately. I need to do better at tracking food intake. 

In reply to yupididit :

   As far as muscle goes my back and arms (forearms in particular) carry by far the most size. I love pullups and deadlifts so my posterior chain seems to get the most stimulus. The fat seems pretty evenly distributed around my upper body with some making it's way to my thighs and glutes when I let myself get really heavy. Also, when I'm over 200 I get these maddening and embarrassing bits of fat under my arms that make my pecs connect to my lats; it makes me look like a miniature version of most powerlifters. It also gives me involuntary Invisible Lat Syndrome. lol 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

The only times that I have personally been on the "lean side" have been training for long distance running (marathon, or trying for PB half marathons). Generally getting up to 30+ mi a week with some of the weekday runs being very speed based and hard miles. Mix in 2-3 days of active weights that I normally do and I'd be 10lbs down compared to a more leisurely 20mi week. When doing that I'd be about 180lb/5'9 vs my 195ish right now. Based on that some questions...

Do you spend more than an hour in the gym? Sometimes. How much of your time is resting? On days 1 and 2 I try to stay around 60-90 seconds between sets. What does your hr get up to during the workout? No clue while lifting, around 140 during cardio. I have noticed that since I have stopped going to a "lifting gym" and just use the available free weights at work I can do a hard workout in 30-40min that is pretty effective and skip the cardio that day. 

When you do spend treadmill/elliptical time, how hard do you push it? How much of your total time is cardio? Or is it just cooldown? I shoot for 20-30 minutes. It's turned into a slog.

I can't translate that calorie mix well, but personally eat 2500+ daily but it's all low ingredient count food, lots of beans/chicken for dinner, fairly low dairy, lots of veggies and nuts. My only vices are coffee (black mostly) and peanut butter cups daily. 

Offhand though I wouldn't call your situation much out of shape, maybe it's more of optomizing your time spent for max benefit. I don't think a lot of lifting does that, at least not for me. I'm trying to get back into shape a bit post having covid this summer, so looking forward to other people's tips.

 

   As far as the programming goes I have a LOT of go-to routines that I love. When I start to burn out, I switch to a different program to stay motivated. I have some that are pure hypertrophy, some that are pure strength but most are a blend of the two. As has been noted above, this one has a lot of high-rep bodyweight work with a "power" day on day 4. It's kind of my own mash up of Bioneer Batman training 2021 (cheesy, I know but, I really like it) and a routine I would set up for someone wanting to score well on the ACFT. Initially, that was a side quest of mine along with leaning out; passing the ACFT just for funzies. But the run kills me. I've never been much of a runner. At my absolute leanest (160 lbs) my fastest mile was 6:57 after weights. The last time I gave it a shot (shortly after starting keto) it took 20+ minutes to hit two miles. 


   For the record, I'm not a fan of keto either but the reduction in hunger and ability to drop weight juuuust barely make it worth it. As soon as the weight loss stops or if I continue to feel like E36 M3, I'll add in some carbs.


   It almost seems like this should go in Builds and Projects. lol

MrJoshua said:

The_Jed said:

   Yes, I am rather short at 5'7".

   The gym where I lift has a nice, padded, 1/10 mile indoor track. The walking lunges are bodyweight only, I touch my back knee to the floor. 


   On days 1 and 2 I keep the weights pretty light but day 4 is entirely for strength building/preservation. 

With your reps/volume I would imagine you are not in desperate need of changing bodyweight for health reasons. You complete a high number of repetitions of bodyweight exercises that range from less influenced by bodyweight (pushups), to more influenced by bodyweight (lunges), to completely decimated by excess bodyweight (chin ups/pull ups). You do all this as a normal workout, not a "challenge" like a Bert or Murph that most hard exercisers consider an accomplishment to finish. Your body performs at an impressively high level.

That said, there are definitely cosmetic benefits, and it looks like longevity benefits to being lighter and leaner. 

I prefer losing body fat to be a dedicated process. The energy deficit required to get lean destroys performance-especially high rep large muscle group performance. If you just cut food intake and try living in that deficit with no other changes you get the worst of both worlds-poor workouts, and poor fat loss. It sounds like you have tried aggressive calorie restriction without any other changes and had about those results. I would suggest more rest , shorter heavier workouts, and aggressive calorie restriction. During the fat loss phase I would suggest increasing resistance on every exercise until you cant complete more than 3 minutes continuous on the exercise (preferably more like 1-2 min), getting those lunge reps down and keeping them away from your non leg days, and adding some scheduled rest days. I would prefer you rest a full day between each session, but you may mentally need the exercise. This If that is the case then make sure the in-between days exercise is not pushing over that threshold into hindering your recovery from your hard workout days (stick to steady state stuff that doesn't require rest periods). 

For the calorie restriction amount and macros you are going to have to find your comfort zone. You probably want a bit lower calories than the 1800 you were eating, but starting at 1800 calories and working down 100 a week until the weight starts falling off is a decent strategy. You should lose a quick 3-5 lbs in the first few days as your body dumps intestinal volume, water, glycogen stores, etc. Then the real loss starts.  I know I will get E36 M3 for this, but if you aren't losing more than 2lbs a week its not worth your effort. 2lbs is a bad week, you should average around 3. Weigh every morning, after taking a leak, with the same amount of clothing (or nude). Use either an electric scale certified for competition weigh ins, or a balance scale.   This is exactly what I do. Weighing daily in the morning is your most accurate feedback for whether your fat loss is progressing as it should. There will be days where the weight makes no sense, but having 7 days a week of feedback makes it easy to know which measurements were garbage.

Our body is capable of burning fat incredibly quickly, we just aren't very good at telling it to.