LERN ME: Dealing With Toxic Family Edition

Since you all know everything (and I mean everything), I wanted to present to the hive a scenario that I've been dealing with for years and get some thoughts/suggestions on how to handle it. Think of this as a GRM Family Counseling Session. This is long and involved, my apologies in advance.

My family has driven me insane for years. Some quick background info:

-There are four of us in the core family: mom, dad, sister, and I. Sister has kids. I do not.

-I am the youngest; my sister is 7 years older than me. I am 38 now, that makes her 45.

-I am married w/no kids. I have my own house and both of us work full time. We have a dog. She is awesome.

-Wife almost died 2 years ago from pancreatic necrosis (and she does not drink either) and she has Type 2 Diabetes. She is doing well now, but she has bad days and flare ups from stress. She is very opinionated and stubborn sometimes. She also has asthma.

-My sister is divorced with 18yo and 22yo boys. She is a mess (stolen from family, been abusive, etc), and currently lives in my parents' basement with both boys, her dog, and cat. She has been there for almost 3 years after her latest eviction. She is narcissistic, materialistic and delusional, and has not learned how to adult, despite being 45. Her kids, however, are both great, and I love them both like they are my own kids.

-Mom is 69 and works retail full time. She has health issues and possibly mild dementia or bipolar disorder, and a history of drinking and smoking that doesn't help. She refuses to go to a doctor after she beat cancer about 20 years ago, claiming she knows more than them. She doesn't get along at all with my sister and they can't be in the same room for 30 seconds without fighting.

-Dad is 70, in forced retirement due to health issues, and has recently become a conspiracy nut. He's usually a good guy, but his biggest vice is that he has enabled my sister to get away with everything so far. He's always there to swoop in and save her, has literally bailed her out of jail a number of times, and more "because she is family".  His inaction has caused most of the issues.

-I am stuck in the middle of all of that. I am overweight and have asthma due to multiple bouts with pneumonia over the years. I am by no means perfect, and can be a stubborn pain in the rear. On top of that, I've had bad bouts with depression, probably due to all of the above. I have gone to professional counseling which helped me gain perspective and learn how to cope with all of that. 

Yeah, that's a lot, I know. To put it plainly, my family life was pretty crazy growing up. Lots of fighting, lots of challenges, and things were never "normal". I coped by keeping myself busy with multiple hobbies, which is why I am into cars, bikes, video games, collecting stuff, writing, and playing music. That kept me out of trouble; I have to stay busy at all times. I moved out 10 years ago, bought a house, and got married. I am by no means perfect, but getting out of there changed my life for the better. We moved 45min away from them, partly to have some privacy. Since then, I have tried to set boundaries with them, but they don't honor them. On the wife's side, her family has been pretty great. They respect boundaries and are "normal". I think they like me better than my wife! I have felt like part of their family since day one.

Since we moved out, holidays and get-togethers have been stressful. My parents do not believe in planning, and even if we do plan something, they feel like they can change the plans at any given time. They do not understand that I shouldn't have to drop whatever I am doing and do what they want when they say. Remember, I am 38 years old, own a house, and work full time. In the past, this has caused conflict, especially around the holidays where we split time and visit both sides of the family. My sister even went after my wife on Christmas morning, calling her a "berking C-word" for "making me leave" to go to our next planned stop. I dread the holidays, because we don't know what the next episode will bring.

This leads me to 2020, the year everything got berked.

Since the pandemic started, I have been working the day job from home. We have restrictions and guidelines so we don't get sick. My wife works in the Human Services field and is essential, so she has been going to work every day. Her work also has strict restrictions to stop the spread of COVID-19, including not attending events/gatherings in groups of more than 10 people without the ability to social distance. If she does, she has to fill out a form and self-quarantine without pay for 14 days, and if she brings the virus to work, she may face discipline. Coupled with the fact that both of us have underlying issues and are at risk, we need to be careful.

Now, my father and sister both think that these restrictions are dumb, and both think everything is a hoax (please don't flounder this). They have invited us to gatherings with other family, and we can't go due to our restrictions. Even if there were no restrictions, we probably wouldn't go due to the health risk, since they aren't careful. We have gone to some small gatherings with the wife's side, and they have been strict on keeping numbers below 10 and social distancing. They are also very careful when it comes to this stuff.

Last weekend, my sister's youngest graduated high school. I am beyond proud of him; it was a tough road for him for various reasons. We asked if we could come by on Sunday (he graduated Saturday evening, and only parents could go to the event) and asked if anyone else was going to be there. Originally, they said it would just be us, and it would be OK. Then, my sister and dad invited a bunch of other family, and the numbers went up, and there was no way to distance. We couldn't go. They got mad and called us names, and blamed it on political stuff. I ended up stopping by anyway, meeting my nephew in the backyard, and giving him a card. He totally understood why we weren't there and was mad at his mom and grandfather.

Then, it gets worse. This Friday is my parents' anniversary. They like to celebrate with my sister and I and the kids, usually having dinner and a cake. We "planned" on the phone for about 2hrs on how to do this last week, and came up with us getting them some seafood to cook on the grill and a rum cake (my dad's favorite) and heading over Friday night after we get out of work. My nephew, who we didn't get to visit with, was excited for us to come down as well, since that would be a make-up date for missing the graduation party. I called yesterday to make sure we were still on, since my wife had ordered the cake from a local bakery and we were getting a final count on what they wanted for food. They decided they didn't want to do Friday anymore because "my sister was working". She has been out of work for about 2 years and got a job a state away. Everyone else will be there but she won't, so they want to move the date. My dad wants to take my mom to a restaurant instead. I am busy the rest of the weekend and can't change my plans, and that pissed them off. Again, I am the bad guy and it's all my fault.

So, now they are angry, and this time, so is the wife. My wife is mad that I "didn't stand my ground". I told her that it's hard to stand on that ground since they keep moving where the ground is! The seafood is off the table. We can't cancel the cake, so the wife wants us to bring it to them anyway, which is fine with me. I can drop it off there if they aren't home with a card. Worst case scenario: I eat a rum cake by myself, since the wife doesn't drink.

WWGRMD? Am I wrong for being mad? Is my wife right in being mad at me? How would YOU handle this?



 

Not much help except that my wife and I both have crazy families.

We don't associate with most of them anymore and we're much better off for it.

Continuing a relationship just because they're family just brings more chaos and stress to our lives. If we do go to a family event and there's drama, we don't put up with it and simply leave.

Lots of people don't seem to understand that you are under no obligation to answer the phone.

We've also taken to going on vacation by ourselves whenever there's a holiday. Way more fun.

Man, that's tough dude.  All I can say is that it's not your fault. 

The only crazy you can own is your own. And it sounds like you are taking positive steps to do that. 

I'd consider- just as a small step to help deal with them- saying "I won't" rather than "I can't"; offer an explanation once and only once; and 3: if either of these don't work, the conversation is over and you go play a bad-as-berkeley metal riff in your basement for an hour before you return to being your normal "pretty good guy" self.  It makes them own their own crazy, because you aren't buying any more. 

Also- Read some Carolyn Hax columns- she is pretty awesome at this sort of thing.

Do nephews have vehicles? I'd invite the nephews to a park, have a BBQ with them outdoors/socially distanced, and tell everyone else to stick it where the sun don't shine. You're looking out for the kids in this. 

For the future, You're not ever going to win this fight, so don't even fight it. You can do that one of two ways: Cut everyone out entirely, or make the plans with your parents and say "Hey, I'm coming by Sunday at 5:30 to drop off the cake - I can only stay for 30 minutes. If you're there, it'd be great to see you; if not, I'll talk to you later and can't wait to hear how your anniversary was". The Peter Gibbons asking Jennifer Anniston out idea. I'td be great to see you, no hard feelings if it doesn't work. If they're yelling at you, just say "Hey, love you guys, we gotta run". 

I'll put up with a hell of a lot of E36 M3 from families, because family. Putting me and my wife's health at serious risk is where I draw the line. 

My girlfriend has a ridiculously unstable sister that lies constantly and in general is incendiary about anything. Even things that don't deal with her directly, she'll make about her. And then make herself the victim in the story.

I plead with her to cut the sister from her life. I have never seen a toxic person change. I've cut several toxic people from my life and never looked back. It's not worth the misery. Let the nephews know you're there for them and cut out the rest.

Wife is #1.  Take a wife and your family is second.  It's even Biblical.  

My bro and his wife got into a big fight with the siblings and refuse to go to any events. He has stepped away from us to focus on his family issues.  

In an odd way I respect him that he decided to make his marriage work first and flipped us the bird.  He has his own problems but his wife is first, then his kids.  The sad part is I miss him and this past Christmas I forgot to send him a text wishing him the best.   

Paid a lot for counseling a long time ago.  I learned some folks like to push your buttons and if they get a response, they keep pushing.  It is hard to learn not to respond, but worth it.

I'd move to the other side of the country.  Send cards on holidays.  Distance makes the heart grow fonder.

Family is who you make it.  Haven't seen my moms parents in years.  Ran into her father in the store right after colin was born and he proceeds to tell me, in front of my wife that he just met, that the kid is good looking unlike it's father, and just because my parents are stupid and don't come visit him doesn't mean i have to be.  He died 2 months ago and i felt nothing.  
 

dump the toxicity and while it's not going to be easy, it will make life better long term.  
 

some people keep family around just to bail them out when they have needs, and I don't need those people around me.  I have aunts and uncles whose numbers are blocked in my phone because they only called when they needed something or when they wanted to dump their baggage on me for free psychiatric help.  

Sounds like my family. 
This pandemic is turning out to be a real cluster.  No good answers, and everyone just getting mad and putting the blame on others. 
I'll echo mtn. Doesn't sound like a fight that can be won, so don't fight. Whether that means cutting someone out, or giving in, I don't know. It sounds like you've made the right desicions  for you and your wife, and no reasonable person should ever blame you for wanting to be careful. 

Im slightly of the opinion that nobody is ever right to get mad, or at least to act in anger. If your folks/sister are mad, best thing to do is realize they are more than likely mad at themselves and don't know a better way to focus that energy. That's what I have to remind myself with certain blood relations, constantly.
 

If you feel the need or desire to put up with some of that mess to visit family on occasion or to be there for your nephews, you'll have to go in knowing what to expect and how to brush it off. The only really tricky part is how to explain to your wife. "We (or I) need to be willing to deal with x amount of crazy, for y time, z times per year." Or something. Find a decent compromise, outline it clearly and stick to it. 
 

Basically, you and your wife come first. That relationship should be your biggest priority. Making that priority clear to your family (AND TO YOUR WIFE) should be step one. After that, I don't know. If you find a perfect solution you could make a lot of money by putting it into a book. 
 

** as should be obvious, I am not an expert, this advise is worth less than you paid, yadda  yadda **
 

Good luck. Family is hard. 

"Not my circus, not my clown".

If an activity fits into your rules and schedule, go.  If not, "I am sorry but I won't be able to make it" with no additional excuse.  Then stick to it.

Teh E36 M3 said:

I'd consider- just as a small step to help deal with them- saying "I won't" rather than "I can't"; offer an explanation once and only once; and 3: if either of these don't work, the conversation is over and you go play a bad-as-berkeley metal riff in your basement for an hour before you return to being your normal "pretty good guy" self.  It makes them own their own crazy, because you aren't buying any more. 

mtn (Forum Supporter) said:

Do nephews have vehicles? I'd invite the nephews to a park, have a BBQ with them outdoors/socially distanced, and tell everyone else to stick it where the sun don't shine. You're looking out for the kids in this. 

For the future, You're not ever going to win this fight, so don't even fight it. You can do that one of two ways: Cut everyone out entirely, or make the plans with your parents and say "Hey, I'm coming by Sunday at 5:30 to drop off the cake - I can only stay for 30 minutes. If you're there, it'd be great to see you; if not, I'll talk to you later and can't wait to hear how your anniversary was". The Peter Gibbons asking Jennifer Anniston out idea. I'td be great to see you, no hard feelings if it doesn't work. If they're yelling at you, just say "Hey, love you guys, we gotta run". 

 

I'll put up with a hell of a lot of E36 M3 from families, because family. Putting me and my wife's health at serious risk is where I draw the line. 

These comments feel right to me, at least in my experience dealing with this kind of BS from an outside-looking-in perspective over the years. Little things like setting specific rules- "If there's more than X people we dont show" should be practiced more, including just hanging up on them or blatantly ignoring them when someone's in a rant. Force them to respect your time. I'd also in your free time look for ways to help those boys- this is in my opinion and experience, but I've known similar families with combinations of conspiracy nuts, narcissism and aging problems and they all have just gotten worse over time despite what their families attempt. Each one is low contact (one is no contact at all) so I'd gird yourself for some rocky decisions.

I'll follow up on a few things:

-I've made it perfectly clear to my family that I am a married adult that deserves some level of respect on a number of occasions. I went to college, have worked full time for the past 18-20 years without interruption, and am a responsible adult. To my parents, I am just a kid and not on their level. I think my sister is jealous that I figured out how to be an adult. She hates my wife because she "took me away from the family".

-I distanced myself from the family on my own; that was my decision. Wife or no wife, I would have gotten out of there. I just happened to have a girl that fell in love with me along for the ride. Not sure if she regrets that now (that is a joke, btw).

-I live far enough away, and I like where I live. My friends are nearby and it's not too far to see other family members I enjoy being around. I don't want to have to move to the other side of the country.

-I try to avoid fighting at all costs. That was how I handled things back when I was younger; I was always the peacemaker trying to get everyone to stop fighting. That might mean I make concessions I don't want to make on occasion. My wife thinks that this is a flaw, and I should stand up for us instead of sometimes making concessions.

-I do love my wife and she comes 1st, period. I put her 1st even when she thinks I'm not. She is my wife and it's my responsibility to make sure our stuff is good. When it comes to my family intervening, things get messy, because they love to pit us against each other.

-When it comes to planning things, her family actually plans and sticks to them. Rarely do things change, and they are understanding when we don't want to do something. When it comes to my family, they think that we do whatever the wifes's family wants and not breaking plans with them to do what my parents want is offensive and disrespectful. Case in point: us not changing our Saturday plans of visiting the wife's 91 year old grandmother to go to a rescheduled dinner with my parents. They are angry that I won't break those plans, which we made over a month ago. 

Ugh... what a mess.

 

We're in the same boat.. we've been out of communication with my parents for a year at this point, and it made things significantly easier.  For the past decade, we've went from trying to adapt to what they need, to the "I'm going to be around at X for Y length of time, hope we get to see you," to finally cutting all contact.
 

For your own piece of mind (and to show solidarity with your wife who is person #1), there's nothing wrong with giving them a reason (your inconsiderate and random behavior), an action (means that I won't be applying much effort to your events. If I can make it, I'll be there assuming that it meets the requirements of no one larger than 10 people and happens when I'm available), and then sticking to it.  Close the conversation by saying that you're not interested in rude or insulting behaviour and that the visit or talk is done when it happens.  When it inevitably happens, point it out and walk away/hang up.

Note that they won't like it, and you'll "be attacking them!" But whatever, you now have a plan to deal with it.

If it doesn't get better after X times (3 years? Whatever), cut it off.  You'll have your own personal record to verify that you made the right call any of the numerous times that you doubt yourself.

In reply to Tony Sestito :

This is the big reason to just walk away/hang up.  There's no concession that will make them happy or repair the relationship.  Your wife is right on that point.  But you don't have to stand there and be insulted either.

"Well, looks like SISTER has gotten to the insult portion of the evening, so we'll be leaving.  See you later!". And walk out.

I've heard of a (very) few people eventually getting enough self reflection to even start correcting their behavior when confronted this way, but I wouldn't bank on it.

OK, lots to unpack here.  I'll try to offer whatever advice / support I can, as will lots of others (ShawnG already started).  This is a good place.

1)  First, good on you for trying to approach this rationally and for being brave enough to post this kind of personal stuff here in the effort to make it better.  That takes fortitude.

2)  Everybody has bad blood somewhere in their family.  You're not alone in this.

3)  Your wife isn't mad at you.  She's mad at the situation.  You did stand your ground - you didn't accept their changes to the mutual plans.  You can't control what they do, you can only react to it.

Now we get into the "easier said than done" tricky part.

4)  At their ages, there isn't going to be any breakthrough or healing.  They've established relationships that either work for them or are too hard to change.  Let me reiterate:  You can't control what they do, you can only react to it.  I'm sure you understand that already.  You just have to keep telling yourself that it's OK and you have to allow yourself to do what you need to protect yourself and your wife.

5)  As ShawnG (and I'm sure others, by the time I've posted this) has pointed out: "family" doesn't mean anything in and of itself.  Genetic relationship is an accident of birth.  To be a family you have to act like a family - it seems like your wife's family has that figured out and have welcomed you into that.  At some level your family is saying "you have to put up with our E36 M3 because we're your family!"  A reasonable answer to that is a quiet but firm, "No, actually, I don't."

6)  While her behaviour is not as extreme as your sister's seems to be, I have a sister who I have essentially cut ties with.  She is 2nd in age among the 4 of us siblings (I am youngest).  She is in her mid-60s now and has 4 kids, ranging in age from 46 to 24 (that's a saga in and of itself).  All her life she has made the least-sensible, least-efficient, least-effective decisions at every available opportunity.  I don't know why.  She has always had some weird, romanticized, hippie-ish vision of her life and seems so terrified of being "normal" that when presented with a choice she will unerringly choose the least sane option (also a saga for another day)...

...which would be fine, if she was happy with her life.  But she's bitter and envious and petty about it, and has been for decades.  Having gone out of her way to do the exact opposite of what an average, sensible person would do, she's consumed with rage that her life is so meager and uncomfortable.  She hasn't been in my house in maybe 3 years, but when she was, she never failed to make some snide comment about something we had bought since the last time she was there.  You know what?  That's what staying in school, getting a real job, and not quitting it randomly buys you.  She thought that was too boring or something, but she still resents that she can't afford more than a bare subsistence.

So rather than put up with her petty sniping and her sponging kids (all of whom are adults now, with limited degrees of success at adulting), we just don't see them more than absolutely necessary.  She's invited to my house once a year, at Easter.  She's invited to my next-up sister's house once per year, at Christmas.  Sometimes she and her brood show up, sometimes not, always at a bad time, always empty-handed and always expecting to be served.  For some reason my eldest sister is still very supportive of her and her family despite the sister in question being the exact opposite of everything my first sister believes and values.

I didn't mean to make this about me but included all that so you know I understand where you're coming from.

7)  At some point - and it sounds like you're in the process of it now - you need to make some hard decisions about what you're willing to tolerate.  At the risk of sounding brutally callous, your sister and father seem like emotional write-offs.  They are not going to change and they are relentlessly toxic to your sanity and physical health.  It sounds like your mother is somewhat better for you, but she is also co-dependent (for want of a better word) with the chaos.

Their behaviour and relationships with each other are out of your control, or even influence.  You cannot fix them.  You need to protect yourself and your wife from their actions - physically and emotionally.  That will be a fight, against them and against some part of yourself.  You've taken the step of adding physical distance.  From this side of the internet, and from the safety of being outside the situation, it sounds like you need to break communication with them as well.  If that means changing your phone numbers, email addresses, whatever it takes.  As I noted at the outset - easy to say, hard to do.

8)  A decision to cut ties is made harder by the existence of your nephews and your sympathy toward them.  It is hard to remove yourself from the poisonous family dynamic without abandoning them to it.  If you make the break, you will have to find a way to let them know you love them and are available to them, but also avoid putting them in the middle between you and their mother.

I hope some little bit of this helps.  You're a smart guy and you have done a great job overcoming the chaotic family life of your younger days.  You've grown up and chosen a new life.  It's OK to defend that choice and your new family.

Reading this  thread makes me happy I had a great relationship with my in-laws, and that my family is pretty normal.  I have nobody blocked in my phone.  I go out of my way to get involved with a fight, but I would not tolerate a toxic person.  They are worth the energy. 

You know, it's ok NOT to interact with your parents and/or sister. My parents and upbringing was chaotic and unpleasant. My sister did a thing to the family that was nothing but beyond petty and selfish. I told her then and there after mom died she would no longer exist to me.

And you what? That's what happened! Burning that bridge was so cathartic and useful in my situation. Behaving like that person died solved every bit of that needless drama and energy loss. It made my marriage stronger and allowed me to focus on non-crazy people.

I will applaud reaching out for advice, whether professional or through friends. Trying to deal with it on your own is the worst path.

All good advice. MTN’s explanation of handling it firm but calm is spot on.  Also correct is the statement that your wife is not mad at you, just the situation. She may not know that herself, but that’s what it boils down to. Sounds like you’re already following the right path... hard to remember you are, though! Tell ‘em when and what you will do... and do that. They can either be ok with that , or not. If not it then becomes their problem. Emotionally hard on you, but sounds like they can’t punish you by treating you any worse! So do your own thing, and let em rant. To your backside, or dead phone, if they want!

I think the one thing I can add is that you can't fix your family. I wanted so badly to have a good relationship with a healthy family, but I really just berked my own stuff up. EVERYTHING started going better when I walked away (moved all the way across the country) and set boundaries for our interactions.

Did my family judge the hell out of me for not tolerating their abuse? Totally. Will they ever see things my way? Likely not. Am I better off with little or no contact with their toxic selves? I have no doubt at all that I am.

Tony.  I sent you a PM as I thought it better than to post up what I had to say here before you saw it.  

Sounds to me like there's a pretty strong consensus here that you're on the right path, keep setting limits and following them as appropriate until they cut themselves out of your life if it comes to that. .

Oh, and ask your nephews how they want to stay in touch.  PayPal or Venmo will even allow gifts to appear for them... I'm still in touch with a my sisters (one of whom lives with my parents), aunt's, uncle's and cousins even after cutting out my parents.  The internet is magical that way :)

Thanks everyone for the advice and insight. I really do appreciate it. It's not easy to talk about this stuff with anyone.

People don't tend to change their behavior without actively trying.  Manage your own expectations about how you expect things to go when you make plans/interact with them.  Don't take it personally when they (as expected) act like shiny happy people...it's bound to happen.  Be relieved when one of them doesn't cause a scene or blow up when you don't cater to his/her whim. 

Everybody that's posted so far has given some good advice, and I'll repeat some points but:

You're an adult. You get to decide how to interact with your family.  You don't owe them a damn thing. 

It seems your family doesn't realize any of this. If it were me, I'd to keep up a good relationship with the nephews, even if it means dropping them emails or texts most of the time, just to let them know you're thinking about them. 

 

What would I do? Establish boundaries, set expectations, and stick to them.