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pilotbraden
pilotbraden HalfDork
10/5/11 2:47 p.m.

This article could go with several discussions that are active on the board.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=13738

This article appeared in The Washington Times on October 4, 2011.

How free is Turkey? Turkey is almost entirely Muslim but lacks most of the repressive characteristics of many of the Arab Muslim countries. It has a largely free market with a high rate of economic growth. But it ranks in the middle among other countries in terms of economic freedom and per capita income. It also has less religious freedom and freedom of speech than is common in most of Europe and the United States and, thus, less liberty.

The Mont Pelerin Society, most of whose members are economists and other scholars who were inspired by the great economist and philosopher F.A. Hayek, is holding a meeting here in Istanbul to discuss the nation, the state and liberty. The discussants are drawn from many countries and cultures, resulting in a very stimulating debate, some of which is summarized here, along with my own observations and thoughts.

Many English speakers use the terms freedom and liberty interchangeably, but these terms have different meanings. You would not hear someone say, "I have liberty from cancer." He would say, "I am free from cancer." Most other languages have only one word for both liberty and freedom, and some languages have no word to explain these English-language concepts.

In his famous Essay on Liberty, John Stuart Mill wrote: "If it were only that people have diversities of taste, that is reason enough for not attempting to shape them all after one model. ... Such are the differences among human beings in their sources of pleasure, their susceptibilities of pain, and the operation on them of different physical and moral agencies, that unless there is a corresponding diversity in their modes of life, they neither obtain their fair share of happiness, nor grow up to the mental, moral and aesthetic stature of which their nature is capable."

Do we need restrictions on our liberties to ensure liberty? If we view the primary function of the state as that of preserving liberty and also protecting person and property, then we implicitly are recognizing the need for some police powers, including defense. Police officers and soldiers cost money, which requires taxes, and the more of each, the more taxes required; hence, less economic liberty. Too many police and laws endanger liberty, and too few mean liberty may not be protected. Living free requires living dangerously.

The United States calls itself "the land of the free," but part of freedom is the freedom to opt out, or exit. Taxes in most European countries are higher than those in the United States, but most Europeans can opt out by moving to a lower tax jurisdiction because they have a territorial system of taxation whereby only those earnings produced within a territory are taxed. In contrast, the United States is one of the few countries with a worldwide tax system, whereby people are taxed on their income regardless of where it is earned, which does not allow a citizen to opt out. Taxes take away the freedom for people to spend the results of their labors as they see fit. The higher the tax rate, the less freedom, but the ability to opt out affords more freedom.

Many on the left argue that people should have free medical care, housing, food, etc. if needed. But for those freedoms to be given, other people's freedom to keep the product of their own labors is diminished as they are forced to work more to cover the cost of supporting others.

One cannot have liberty without the ability to consent to even necessary restraints on one's liberties. In a direct democracy like Switzerland, the majority must consent to have its liberties restricted. In representative democratic systems, liberties are often taken away without consent.

Liberty can only be preserved if most people both understand the concept and appreciate its importance. Too little time in schools and political discussions is spent on liberty. What is not understood will not be protected.

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
10/5/11 2:50 p.m.

Can I get the cliff's notes?

pilotbraden
pilotbraden HalfDork
10/5/11 2:52 p.m.

I believe that the last line is true. We give away our liberty and freedom to easily.

carguy123
carguy123 SuperDork
10/5/11 3:20 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: Can I get the cliff's notes?

Now that's really sad.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Dork
10/5/11 4:36 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: Can I get the cliff's notes?

Just the same old right wing talking points.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
10/5/11 4:38 p.m.

It took me at least 8 tries at reading the first paragraph to realize that the article wasn't talking about delicious roasted poultry.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Dork
10/5/11 5:14 p.m.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: It took me at least 8 tries at reading the first paragraph to realize that the article wasn't talking about delicious roasted poultry.

I think he said something in there about getting off his lawn too.

ThePhranc
ThePhranc Reader
10/5/11 5:44 p.m.
pilotbraden wrote: I believe that the last line is true. We give away our liberty and freedom to easily.

I would posit that most of us have it given away for us by some one we have no connection to.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Dork
10/5/11 5:50 p.m.

Isn't the Washington Times the Eternal Reverend Moon's newspaper?

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
10/5/11 6:48 p.m.
pilotbraden wrote: One cannot have liberty without the ability to consent to even necessary restraints on one's liberties. In a direct democracy like Switzerland, the majority must consent to have its liberties restricted. In representative democratic systems, liberties are often taken away without consent.

In a direct democracy, it only takes 51% of the population to limit the liberties of the other 49%.

As California has shown, it only takes a small wealthy special interest to dupe 51% of the population in order to limit the liberties of 99%.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/5/11 10:25 p.m.
forced to work more to cover the cost of supporting others

No. No. No. They are not forced to work more to support others. Instead, they can choose to have less disposable income.

At least the article recognizes that in a modern industrialized nation taxes are pretty much a requirement in order to maintain things that we might otherwise take for granted. We do want roads to drive on, right?

neon4891
neon4891 SuperDork
10/5/11 10:28 p.m.

I like Pie

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
10/5/11 10:29 p.m.
Brett_Murphy wrote: At least the article recognizes that in a modern industrialized nation taxes are pretty much a requirement in order to maintain things that we might otherwise take for granted. We do want roads to drive on, right?

That depends on if I have to option for a post apocalyptic death buggy.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy Dork
10/5/11 11:04 p.m.
neon4891 wrote: I like Pie

There is one, and ONLY one poster on these boards who is allowed to derail threads with fanciful desert distractions.

YOU SIR, are NOT that person

aggravator
aggravator New Reader
10/5/11 11:21 p.m.

i like pie, am i that person?

oldsaw
oldsaw SuperDork
10/5/11 11:26 p.m.
neon4891 wrote: I like Pie

What kind?

The one that gets bigger and allows everyone willing to get a bigger piece, or the pie that remains the same size (or shrinks) and everyone quibbles over who gets the biggest piece?

MitchellC
MitchellC Dork
10/5/11 11:53 p.m.

Or how about the type of pie that everyone argues about his or her contribution to the piemaking process, as well as the superiority of blueberry pie or cherry pie. When someone recommended a mixed berry pie, the suggestion fell upon deaf ears, despite it having the best balance of textures, sweetness, and acidity of all of the choices.

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
10/6/11 1:27 a.m.

The issues raised in that article are covered much better in this philisophical treatise on freedom.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/6/11 7:28 a.m.
neon4891 wrote: I like Pie

and I like Pi... things always seem to come full circle.

It is a given that taxes are NEEDED if we are to continue living in a "1st world" country. All the luxuries that we take as a given are provided by those taxes. Roads: Check, Parks: Checks, Police: Check, Firefighters, Check. A military that keeps us safe from foreign powers: Check, Schools to educate the next generation: Check

It is a matter of prioritizing

Personally, I feel two things are necessities. Education and Health. If you have both of those, you can do ANYTHING.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
10/6/11 7:53 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: Can I get the cliff's notes?

One cannot have liberty without the ability to consent to even necessary restraints on one's liberties. In a direct democracy like Switzerland, the majority must consent to have its liberties restricted. In representative democratic systems, liberties are often taken away without consent.

Liberty can only be preserved if most people both understand the concept and appreciate its importance. Too little time in schools and political discussions is spent on liberty. What is not understood will not be protected.


Want to watch a number of GRMS folk proudly proclaim they would throw it all away in the name of safety? Read this thread: http://archive.grassrootsmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=29320&p=1

Otto Maddox
Otto Maddox Dork
10/6/11 8:21 a.m.

Bart Simpson: The Constitution? I'm pretty sure the PATRIOT Act killed it to ensure our freedoms.

I love this quote. That is all.

cardiacdog
cardiacdog Reader
10/6/11 11:30 a.m.

Liberty  1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control. 2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence. 3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice. 4. freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty. 5. permission granted to a sailor, especially in the navy, to go ashore.

Freedom 1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial. 2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc. 3. the power to determine action without restraint. 4. political or national independence. 5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.

I thought these definitions were enlightening. Interesting how they are intertwined

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
10/6/11 11:46 a.m.
foxtrapper wrote: One cannot have liberty without the ability to consent to even necessary restraints on one's liberties. In a direct democracy like Switzerland, the majority must consent to have its liberties restricted. In representative democratic systems, liberties are often taken away without consent.

But the minority does not.

If you look back, you will notice that one of the big things that concerned our founding father's was that an unenlightened, uninformed majority could have the power to infringe on the liberties of a minority. That is one of the big reasons for a representative democracy.

I don't think it would be too hard to get the bottom 51% of earners to vote to raise taxes on the top 2% to something outrageous. Or you could get a group of people to get enough support for saving the Earth to have them cobble together a law that effectively makes car racing illegal.

I imagine most people on this board consider themselves better educated and informed on political issues than the average person. Do you really follow everything being proposed that you would actually be able to make an informed vote?

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/6/11 5:10 p.m.

that is the problem. The amount of bills proposed in a year is staggering. Just sit in on a local council meeting sometime

foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
10/7/11 4:42 a.m.
Salanis wrote: If you look back, you will notice that one of the big things that concerned our founding father's was that an unenlightened, uninformed majority could have the power to infringe on the liberties of a minority. That is one of the big reasons for a representative democracy.

Those founding fathers had no qualms about infringing liberties and freedoms of non-land owning non-white males.

Everything I have ever read made it pretty darn clear that things like the electoral college were set up to ensure unenlightened uninformed people did not have a say.

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