LM: Mirrorless Cameras

The film camera got me thinking about my entry level DSLR that I've had for about 11 years now. It's a Nikon D60 and it's done some great work for me (minus being a crop sensor). It's seen better days and it's extremely bulky to carry on hiking trips and honestly new iphones take almost as good of pictures with less hassle. 

I would like to start taking a dedicated camera with me on my hiking adventures or for race weekends that isn't a pain in the ass to lug around and it seems like a mirrorless is the way to go. Just curious on what the hive uses and recommends.

I want something that's going to take great landscapes but all capable of getting a decent panning shot at a Champcar weekend.

Following because I am in the same place with an old janky D60 as well.

I want the new one to have better low light performance and it must still be full manual capable & shoot raw.

ProDarwin said:

Following because I am in the same place with an old janky D60 as well.

I want the new one to have better low light performance and it mus still be full manual & shoot raw.

Oh yea - low light performance is a must as well. 

I guess the big question is how many lenses you already have for the current camera system. It's usually not the bodies that are the expensive part, but the collection of lenses that follows.

Me, me!! Call me a recent covert, and I have been researching the heck out of this. For me, this would be a carry-around camera--something for shooting when in New York, for example. I was looking for something kinda back to basics. The goal here is making photography fun again.

My final answer? Fujifilm's new X100V. They just announced it, and now I'm waiting for them to ship. 

BoxheadTim said:

I guess the big question is how many lenses you already have for the current camera system. It's usually not the bodies that are the expensive part, but the collection of lenses that follows.

I only have 3. The 2 that came with the D60 18-55, the 55-200, and a 50mm f/1.4 - all were purchased together when Circuit City went out of business back in 09 for a hell of a deal. So I don't have a lot of money invested. 

Can you sell off D60 lenses?  Asking for a friend.  I also have 3.  18-55, 55-200, and something-300

I have an Olympus E-PL5 that has been serving me well for a few years now. I am a complete hack, so I wouldn't trust anything I have to say on its capabilities. However, I will confirm that the size/weight (portability) has been outstanding compared to a DSLR.

ProDarwin said:

Can you sell off D60 lenses?  Asking for a friend.  I also have 3.  18-55, 55-200, and something-300

Yes - I ran over the 18-55 backing up a racecar once. Had no idea the lens fell out of the camera back and heard a huge pop. Thought something broke on the car. People on eBay were selling them for a decent amount of money a couple of years ago. 

David S. Wallens said:

Me, me!! Call me a recent covert, and I have been researching the heck out of this. For me, this would be a carry-around camera--something for shooting when in New York, for example. I was looking for something kinda back to basics. The goal here is making photography fun again.

My final answer? Fujifilm's new X100V. They just announced it, and now I'm waiting for them to ship. 

Dumb question: how does this compare to the stuff in the ~$700 range?  Big difference?

I'll pay for good hardware (good sensor, good lens if I need it, etc), but I probably don't need a ton of features or megapixels or 17k video or it to sync with my bluetooth underwear.

In reply to ProDarwin :

The Fuji stuff is *good*. Like, *real good*. I have one of their older range finder shaped mirrorless cameras and it rocks. Plus even the kit lenses are good, which is not something you find often.

Downside, not that many lenses on the used market and not many, if any third party lenses. Plenty of adapters for older, other lenses - I've got one for my Yashica/Contax lenses (which are superb glass).

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not a dumb question. I honestly don't know as I took a fasttrack route to the answer. A good friend of mine teaches photojournalism. (Hi, Mark.) When I told him what I wanted--fun to use, great in low light, no excuses--he pointed me to the Fuji. I love the rangefinder setup. The controls are old school. You set shutter speed via a dial, not a menu. It's different than my usual. I still use a DSLR for magazine work (Canon 7D MkII), so this is really about fun and personal stuff. 

No zoom? I'm totally down with that. I just spent a few days in New York using the 7D fitted with the 24mm pancake lens. Totally loved it. It's simple. It's fun. It's like going back to school where we had to use a 50mm lens on a K1000. It forces you to compose the shot. 

I don't see this camera for on-track motorsports. But in the garages, it could be golden. 

I also considered the XT-3, but it's too close to the 7D. Basically, I don't want two Miatas. I want a Miata and a 911, if that makes any sense. Mark said very good things about it, though. 

The lens and body should be considered together for size and weight. Lot of mirrorless lenses are huge. 

Fuji crop stuff looks great and the controls on the top deck look nice. Seems like a lot of processing happens even on the raw's and I don't know that all of the glass is top flight. But there's still some appeal there. 

Wallens, I thought that the Canon 24 stm was crop only. 

Quite a few years back I went from Olympus E series DSLRs to an Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark II Limited Edition Titanium... will never go back to a DSLR. Nice having DSLR power and ability in a package nearly 1/2 the bulk and weight. Only thing I miss from DSLR is the optical viewfinder.... like not having to have camera on to do a quick see through the lense since I shoot 100% manual focus with mostly vintage Olympus OM glass. The digital viewfinder is not bad though... nice clear and sharp image with realtime movement/motion

.

The OM-3Ti was my dream camera when I was younger (still wouldn't mind having one, but they have gone up in price compared to new... and new was quite expensive enough in the 90's.) Had a few OM-1 and OM-2Ns and an OM-4T, but once digital really came around I much preferred just not messing with film and never looked back. When the Limited Edition Titanium OM-D E-M5 Mark II came out it really pulled on my OM-3Ti heartstrings... Olympus even ran ads showing it with the OM-3Ti. 

Mirrorless bodies are so much more freeing to shoot with normal sized lenses... fit right in the hand, not some large brick obscuring your face like a DSLR body. And mine properly interfaces with the E-series DSLR accessories like the FL-50R flash and flash bracket holder and associated cables... nothing like having a nice high power, full featured flash unit noticeably bigger than the camera body... LOL

If you are looking to go to mirrorless from DSLR I say go for it and don't look back - keep in your lense ecosystem if you have quite a collection and choose the body that works best for your needs.

I shot with it at the 55th Daytona 24... much better than lugging around a full SLR pack:

https://vracer111.smugmug.com/Cars/Racing/2017Daytona-Test/n-RvLk2x/

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

The 7D is a crop sensor. It works well with my two main lenses: 17-40mm f4.0 and 70-200mm f2.8.

I should add that for action stuff, I loooove the 7D with the 70-200mm f2.8 lens. I run the battery grip, too. The heft of the camera balances out the lens, and I don't find it tiresome to use. 

That's something really missing from the Pentax ecosystem; a lens a little faster and longer than the DA 21, a little wider and smaller and less expensive than the FA 31. A brand new F 28 would turn me on instead of 25 year old copies. 

What in particular makes a mirrorless bad for action stuff?  Delay due to no real viewfinder?  Lens limitations?  I'm assuming shutter speed is not a factor...

This is a canon 6D compared to a Sony A7 II...

both are wearing f/2.8 ultrawides (20mm for canon, 18mm for Sony)

so, 14.5oz lighter.  I've also picked up an Rokinon FE 35mm f/2.8... which about the equivalent of Wallens' 24mm.

I had some trouble last year at OneLap with my a6000 and 70-300mm FE lens.  Was it because I can't pan?  Was it because EVF lagged, so it was hard to stay on target?  One or both?  I also had issues with the autofocus locking in on red/white curb stripes and not the vehicle.

...

it might be tough to tell from the top picture, but I can confidently 'palm' the A7 with that lens... and I'm not particularly large/strong/bear-handed.  I can sling the A7 and an a6000 with the 70-300 on my messenger bag strap, no problem.  I don't think I'd be doing that with a 6D and a 7D.

I like that the Sony FE lenses can interchange with the crop sensor bodies (similar to Canon/Nikon dslr's), whereas the other mirrorless ecosystems have different mounts for crop and full frame.  Additionally, I feel like there's more... innovation?  There's more new/interesting lens options going on in the mirrorless systems.  But, that's just an 'imho' kind of thing.

Specifically from a Sony perspective, I find the color science on the A7 II is more pleasing to me than the a6000, so I would look at the A7 II and the a6300/a6100 and later bodies than the a6000/a5100 (or even earlier nex cameras).

Thank you guys for all the info!

So what I'm inferring so far is that the mirrorless cameras aren't great for panning and motorsports related action shots? I can still take some pretty bitching pan shots with the D60 and the entry level lenses I have. Maybe I just need to invest in two different cameras - a mirrorless for all of my travel/hiking adventures and a better DSLR for my racing adventures. 

I really just want to get back into shooting. I've been to far too many beautiful places in the last 3 years and have only had my iPhone on me because carrying around a DSLR is just too bulky and I feel like I'm really missing out on catching some of the more breathtaking views I've seen. Like a full moon rising in Death Valley or the sun rising over the Cascades Pass Trail and so on. 

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

A serious question that might help with the decision: How much track-side photography do you do? A lot? Some? Nearly none? 

Can you elaborate on why a mirrorless wouldn't be desireable for trackside stuff?

If it was just SLR vs mirrorless, regardless of actual features & functions of specific bodies, I can't think of any reason why mirrorless couldn't perform as well or even better than a DSLR.  "or even better" due to a possibly higher frame rate available with the mirrorless body.  Olympus has done some amazing things with their micro four-thirds bodies lately although there are, of course, some trade-offs to be aware of.

I think the biggest thing about track-side photography is good autofocus that can keep locked on the intended subject.  I don't know who does that best today.  And I don't think anyone is selling a camera in 2020 that doesn't do at least alright at it; there's been a lot of improvement in AF in the last decade.

ProDarwin said:

Can you elaborate on why a mirrorless wouldn't be desireable for trackside stuff?

The challenge mirrorless cameras face is they're using the sensor to display the image from the lens onto the EVF, and (afaik) the same processor that's compiling the data from the sensor onto the memory card is also responsible for updating the EVF.  So, as you take the picture, the EVF can lag, or be black, while the camera system does its thing to 'capture' the image.  The older/cheaper the camera, the longer the lag is.

Technically speaking, you also lose sight of the scene with a DSLR as the camera flips up/down.  At some point, mirrorless cameras will have the horsepower to keep the EVF updated while recording without any lag... and will then be superior to DSLR.

I'll try later to dig up a video of one of the Sony's that is fast enough that you can pan.

also, there's at least one pro motorsports photographer that's using Fuji...
https://shotkit.com/andrew-hall/

https://fujilove.com/christopher-lyzcen-can-you-use-the-x-t10-for-motorsports/

Another difference between traditional DSLR's and Mirrorless is the algorithm used for focusing.  DSLR traditionally have a separate focusing screen between the mirror and the view finder and do 'contrast dection', whereas the mirrorless has to do everything with the sensor, and use something called 'phase detection'.  Since it's new, phase detection autofocus is relatively undeveloped compared to contrast... however the gap is closing fast.  Additionally, phase detection autofocus allows the camera to detect and focus on particular objects, like eyes.  Unfortunately, that might mean that they have to develop algorithms for each subject... and motorsports might tend to be behind comparetively (depending on the scene)

My wife bought a Canon EOS RP last summer with the $200 adapter ring and a cheap nifty fifty lens. Although the controls are a wee bit wonky (good luck trying to learn how to adjust aperture on the fly), it has otherwise been fantastic for our personal and artistic needs.

I've been burned in the past by the Nikon lens ecosystem and liked the ability to use pretty much any Canon lens made. My wife liked the full frame format, as she's used to shooting a Hasselblad film camera. This got us both for the right price point, and it's been heavily used without complaint since.