long term fuel costs?

ShadowSix wrote: If the Iranians close the Strait of Hormuz economists think you'll get to see $8/gal. this summer

That would last a couple of days before we handed them their collective a$$.

My comments were not directed at any in this forum, but rather at the large quantities of drives out there on the road who DO intended to hijack my government in an attempt to lower their fuel costs.

I don't HATE SUV's, I've owned them, I've driven them, I've enjoyed them, but I always understood that fueling them is going to suck.

Rather than say "this is Obama's fault" or "this all those trees huggers fault," I just say "this is how its going to be, so how can I modify my daily life to reduce my costs."

If anything, I'd love to see the government loosen restrictions on passenger diesels so companies like Mahindra and others could give us 40mpg SUVs. I think its a bit unfair to allow millions of commercial vehicles to spew the black smoke while only getting 10mpg when there are lots of small business owners and families alike that could benefit from 40mpg clean diesels.

In reply to mguar:

But the question is why not use a mini van (or even a station wagon)? That could carry the equal cargo and be more efficient? Unless you have to commute off road or something that needs a larger vehicle for towing, in which case I could certainly see an SUV being called for. If that's not the case then you are the one contributing (in a very small amount) to the problem.

Most of the people where I live buy SUVs for the status (w/dubs as they call um) or use the family for the excuse. Trucks/SUVs are the primary vehicle on the road right now and they really are not needed. It's a really a "wants" not "needs" trend.

mguar wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Please do not believe that the past will re-happen.. In 1977 China had a total of 1 million vehicles.. today they have 85 million. A new car is sold in China every 2.3 seconds. China is the worlds 2nd largest user of oil followed closely by India.. Back in 1977 China wasn't even in the top 100 nations. China builds more roads in a month than America builds in a year.. In fact right now China has more roads than 20 times all of the surface area of England including Ireland and Scotland. I'm politely trying to explain how much demand will occur from sources we previously never used to consider..

I don't understand what this had to do with a simple question.

How soon do you think we'll be seeing the $5.00 to $7.00 a gallon gasoline you referenced in your first post, and what are your sources?

Whoa kids.......

I think it is safe to say that most of the folks here are the outliers -- we buy vehicles for a specific reason/purpose......and not as a "lifestyle decision" or to keep up an image.

I pull into any parking lot here in North Texas and I see small SUV/truck/dually/large SUV/'burban/F350/mothership SUV/whatever. I wonder how many folks who own those vehicles really use them to the best of their abilities....or they are purchased because they think that is what they need to keep themselves and Brayden, Jayden, and Kayden "safe". Methinks it is the latter -- perception instead of reality.

Me? I just bought a new GTI for myself as a get-around town kinda car. I took the S-10 Blazer that is 12 years old and has 130+k miles on it and put it in the shop and I use it for those occasional times (2 or 3) in a month where I need a truck...like towing a trailer or going to the OrangeBox (tm) store for stuff. I couldn't justify getting a new truck to replace the old truck and get 20 MPG or so and have a $30k+ car payment (I like new stuff for daily driver status -- I play with used cars ). I now use the Blazer for occasional use things that a truck should be used for, and the GTI as a getaround car (which appeals to my inner hoonigan just nicely, thankyaverrymuch!).

Works for me.....

jere wrote: In reply to mguar: But the question is why not use a mini van (or even a station wagon)? That could carry the equal cargo and be more efficient? Unless you have to commute off road or something that needs a larger vehicle for towing, in which case I could certainly see an SUV being called for. If that's not the case then you are the one contributing (in a very small amount) to the problem.

Yes, a lot of people drive SUV's for the status. No argument. Kind of like BMW's, or a lot of other status cars many of US like to drive.

But it is REALLY untrue to suggest that a minivan or station wagon can carry equal cargo to an SUV and be more efficient.

They CAN'T carry equal cargo. EVER. They also can't ever tow equal cargo. Most minivans are in the 3500 lb range vs a Suburban which can tow up to 12,000 lbs.

They also usually seat fewer people (as previously noted).

Sometimes they are a little more fuel efficient.. only sometimes.

If you compare a Mazda 5 to a Chevy Suburban with a 454, well... that's an invalid comparison.

If you compare # seats with cargo capacity with fuel economy with purchase cost vs depreciated sales cost (apples to apples), SUV's can frequently outperform minivans (depending on the usage).

But let's assume your statements were true.

Your question, "Why not use a mini van (or even a station wagon)?" is an easy one. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO DRIVE AN SUV.

What if racers were asked, "But why not race a TDI, or a Metro? Why waste all that fuel on a (insert your favorite gas guzzling race car)?"

Maybe because you WANT to race a rotary, or a V-8, or a Subaru, or a ....

It generally has absolutely nothing with a deep inner desire to ruin the planet. Why not force everyone to ride bicycles if we actually want to protect the planet??

Alls I know is, you 'mericans better get your E36 M3 together. Oil dropped like a rock today and your stock market is scaring me. I'd like to keep my cushy oil job thanks, so shape it up!

jere wrote: In reply to mguar: But the question is why not use a mini van (or even a station wagon)? That could carry the equal cargo and be more efficient? Unless you have to commute off road or something that needs a larger vehicle for towing, in which case I could certainly see an SUV being called for. If that's not the case then you are the one contributing (in a very small amount) to the problem. Most of the people where I live buy SUVs for the status (w/dubs as they call um) or use the family for the excuse. Trucks/SUVs are the primary vehicle on the road right now and they really are not needed. It's a really a "wants" not "needs" trend.

Or you want a vehicle that can comfortably seat 5 adults, have a bed for picking/delivering firewood/engines/hoists, still tow 6000lbs and not get left behind on the trails (granted no rock crawling).

I just spent 20 minutes at the car wash getting all the mud/rock/clay that covering the truck and underneath.

Do I pay a mileage penalty for that level of utility? Yes. Do I care? No.

In reply to SVreX:

I would race the hell out of a TDI VW. There would just have to be a class for it first. I would say ditto fro the Metro, but I don't know if I could shoehorn a respectable cage into one.

SVreX wrote: Yes, a lot of people drive SUV's for the status. No argument. Kind of like BMW's, or a lot of other status cars many of US like to drive. But it is REALLY untrue to suggest that a minivan or station wagon can carry equal cargo to an SUV and be more efficient. They CAN'T carry equal cargo. EVER. They also can't ever tow equal cargo. Most minivans are in the 3500 lb range vs a Suburban which can tow up to 12,000 lbs. They also usually seat fewer people (as previously noted). Sometimes they are a little more fuel efficient.. only sometimes. If you compare a Mazda 5 to a Chevy Suburban with a 454, well... that's an invalid comparison. If you compare # seats with cargo capacity with fuel economy with purchase cost vs depreciated sales cost (apples to apples), SUV's can frequently outperform minivans (depending on the usage). But let's assume your statements were true. Your question, "Why not use a mini van (or even a station wagon)?" is an easy one. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO DRIVE AN SUV. What if racers were asked, "But why not race a TDI, or a Metro? Why waste all that fuel on a (insert your favorite gas guzzling race car)?" Maybe because you WANT to race a rotary, or a V-8, or a Subaru, or a .... It generally has absolutely nothing with a deep inner desire to ruin the planet. Why not force everyone to ride bicycles if we actually want to protect the planet??

Like I said in the third sentence of my last post "Unless you have to commute off road or something that needs a larger vehicle for towing, in which case I could certainly see an SUV being called for."...maybe you missed that?

Now the way that you are skimming all the best parts of all the different SUVs is making me want one. Seat 9, can tow 12,000 lbs, cost less than mini vans, and while doing all that can get better gas mileage than a compact car.... Oh wait, reality check you just skimmed over all the best features of all the SUVs not one that actually exists....

The truth is not very many people drive 8 others around, or tow 12,000lbs that much, and when they do they aren't getting more than 13mpg highway.

Just because there isn't an intent to ruin our planet doesn't mean they aren't doing it anyway. There are better more realistic options than "everyone riding bicycles" for instance mass transit it is a step in a good direction. Would one have to make some personal sacrifices for mass transit? Yeah, but is it worth to help avoiding a problem that is as big as a nuclear attack...? Because climate change will be that devastating in time, and it all starts with billions+ of peoples' "wants"

In reply to mguar:

You are defiantly an exception in your uses of the vehicle (particularity for towing). The problem is that most people in the city don't "tow a Boat, Camper, Horse trailer, are they building a home, or have a hobby that requires more space or capacity than a minivan supplies". And for the few that do and only are going to have one car per family could they do something like rent a moving van to do some hauling if they need extra space? Maybe leave the boat at friend's place that is close to the lake instead of driving cross country with boat in tow once or twice a year? Those are just maybe answers for certain situations but hopefully that conveys my point?

And 18 hours straight WOW, I drive for a living (within the city limits) and after 13 hours of driving I can't take it anymore

In reply to jere:

The specs I referenced were not made up, nor were they cherry picked. They were taken directly from the 2012 specs for a Chevrolet Suburban.

"Commute off road" and "towing" still leave out large families. I know a lot of people who drive Suburbans, and they almost all have large families. Yes, I know a lot of large families. I homeschool, and this is very common. I realize that your experiences are not similar to mine, but you are mistaken when you say that there are not very many large families who drive them, or that these vehicles get 13 mpg. I have owned 2. I never got less than 18 mpg.

Most large rural families have a good use for these vehicles. Beyond that, your biases are showing through.

In reply to jere:

This is a really big country.

Suggesting it is possible to utilize mass transit in the majority of the rural country is foolish and ignorant.

There is no such thing.

The closest mass transit system to where I live is the city of Atlanta- 3 hours away.

Anyone here ever seen the documentary Gashole? I found it on netflix, turns out you can watch the whole darn thing on Hulu. http://www.hulu.com/watch/231050/gashole

It's a little left wing, but still a good watch. Makes me want to buy a bicycle.

I pretty much stopped caring about gas prices when I sold my car after I basically stopped driving in when I got a motorcycle. 3 years later(!) and I still only occasionally miss having a cage... mainly when its snowing or when I want to get more than I can fit in a duffel bag at the store.

In reply to SVreX:

I never said mass transit will work in every situation, I have lived and worked in places that require a 4x4 and tow off road in mountain trails. There is just no way around it they are needed in a very few situations. Is mass transit something that should be used more where it can be, absolutely.

Now let's think about how uncommon it really is to have that big a family because a big family isn't really as big of a factor as you make it out on the national average. What's the national average 1.5 kids? A full 2 kids will fit in a compact car not even a mini van/wagon. It might be common in a very few areas or Africa to have a large family but it's not for the central US anymore (well maybe Utah ) . I could go into this further as my grandmother had 13 kids and this was before SUVs existed...

The EPA's tests don't include loaded vehicles to my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) and the 2012 Chevrolet Suburban looks like it has 5 different packages ranging from "UP TO 10mpg city" to at it's best "21mpg HWY". I know you were talking about the one you owned but to be fair we have to have broader perspective of what's out there. With that statistic I brought up another problems, we're talking about the brand new model with gas mileage at it's best. What about the majority of the vehicles of this class on the road now, they are on average around 10 years old. That means worse mileage and emissions from lack of repairs and technology implemented when they were made. Another question if there are (made up number) 20 people in the city with new Suburbans for every 1 person in the country what is that doing for the average gas mileage of the Burban? It's bringing the average down for all of the Burbans. I read a study that said if the average vehicle on the road got 20mpg then we wouldn't have run into the fuel price crisis like we did, and gas would be like a dollar a gallon (or something a lot less) still.

Another statistic just because I thought it was interesting and doesn't fit anywhere else is cattle products. Without cattle farming processing, delivery...and so on fuel prices would be 1/3rd less. Do I think that we could realistically give up cattle products as a society, not anytime soon. It is something to think about again as we really don't "need" cattle products ( most of the time they make us fat and unhealthy anyway). What if we as a society went about finding out how to cut back what we use instead of just looking for more and becoming more wasteful in the process?

Made up hypothetical statistics get me excited.

Good grief.

I have not said ANYTHING about national averages, and honestly don't care.

ALL I have said is that SUV's serve a purpose.

You can manipulate statistics all you want to try to support your political agenda.

SUV's exist. They are going to continue to exist.

Nobody actually "needs" a car. I'm not too good with horses.

It is dishonest to point the finger at the evil SUV's on a motorsports forum, when the MAJORITY of motorsports vehicles are tremendously inefficient. This, from a group of people who intentionally disable emissions equipment.

The market can decide just fine whether SUV's need to exist or not.

In reply to jere:

I didn't say big families were common.

I said SUV's were common among big families.

But twist it how you like.

I am one who doesn't really get SUVs, at least in the numbers that are out on the road. That being said, my DD is a WRX that gets usually about 21 MPG on premium gas. I also have a turbocharged Miata that gets 21 MPG on premium gas, and a full size van that gets whatever it gets, but it's not too good but at least it doesn't use premium. The only car I have that gets decent mileage is my Mini, but that thing may work out well for me at the pump, but with no smog equipment, no EFI, no cat, etc., I'm sure it is worse overall for the planet for me to drive than the WRX or Miata.

My cars are my choices and they are not the best choices for mpg or total cost of ownership. If/when gas goes to $7/gallon I am in a worse place than the guy driving a prius. Cars are a luxury item and so is the use of oil. Things will change in the future and I am ok with that. I envision a day where oil is scarce enough and expensive enough that future generations will ask us how in the world were we so stupid to use oil to make plastic bags that were used once and thrown away/ We as a people have been treating oil like it was an infinite resource for the last 100 years. It is not and we have used up a lot of this precious resource in ways that make no sense. I could ride a bike to work, but it's over 30 miles each way, or get a more fuel efficient car for my commute, but I choose not to. I will pay for the privilege of living where I do in relation to my job as long as I can.

The problem is that, in the last few decades, fuel prices have not increased in a linear, predictable fashion.

For most of my life, from '81 to '01, gas was between about $1.20 and $1.60, even during Desert Storm it stayed around there.

By 2008 I was paying $4.50 or so.

We will not see the next jump coming either.

SVreX wrote: In reply to jere: I didn't say big families were common. I said SUV's were common among big families. But twist it how you like.

I said the problem with SUVs is the large amount of people that drive them and could be in something more efficient and make less problems for everyone but don't.

The SUV owners (that could be in a more practical vehicle) are peeing in the only pool that everyone has to swim in. That's the problem, everyday at rush hour the highways where I live are full of SUVs and large trucks with one passenger everyday. They aren't towing anything or hauling and boats, they are just sitting in traffic burning up gas. To me it's a pretty simple problem twist it how you like.

In reply to mguar:

Like I said I think you are and exception to the rule, if you need the vehicle for it's designed purpose of hauling then so be it. SUV/trucks are a target simply because they are on the road longer and in greater numbers. If you have a truck/SUV and don't need it for the previous stated reason then the resale is higher for truck/SUVs and the used car market is huge. Care and feeding for smaller cars is less than there larger counterparts , and it would save money for under/un-employed bus boy to maintain. Granted they might not get a brand new car but they could get a very reliable, practical vehicle if they sell what they have and buy something else.

The one car I have for my example is a Nissan NX2000 . The NX is my fun car it gets 28 mpg city and 34 hwy they (or the Sentras) sell for $1500-2000 all day. None of the parts ( hotrod parts not included) for it cost more than $500 ($500 being a new motor). I can fit 8ft 2x4s in it and have used it to carry the wood that I rebuilt my front porch with and many other similar projects. It can carry two other people, the dog a window air con in the boot and some bicycles on the rack. In winters it has climbed snow covered valley roads that had left 4x4s and other cars off to the side of the road stuck. Are there other cars that have more leg room in the back, sure but my daughter won't need that room for another 10-12 years. So that's my experience, if someone has $30k for the truck/SUV out there they could cough up another $2k for a small commuter car when they really don't need it and still get by

I don't really see the problem with SUVs. If you don't like them, then don't buy one. It's pretty simple.

[curmudgeon]Hmph.[/curmudgeon]

I DD a 1997 Trooper. Why? It's paid for and does everything I ask of it. It tows the race car. It pulls the trailer I use to pick up construction materials. It's big enough to carry 5 adults comfortably. It's reliable as a rock. The downside is ~16 mpg. OBTW: It got better mileage before the 10% ethanol thing became so widespread.

Every time I think I might look for something different and I tick off all the things it does without complaint, I realize I'd be a damn fool to get rid of it because someone else looks down their nose and says 'hmph. Look at him. He's wasting resources'.

I submit to you that by NOT buying a new vehicle, I am not contributing to ripping more iron ore/bauxite/petrochemicals out of the Earth's crust just so I can drive the latest E36 M3box that the car commercials say I must own if I want to be looked up to. Whether it's an SUV or not is immaterial.

I considered buying a gas saver as a dinghy for the Trooper, but why? (I even started a thread on here about doing that.) All my costs go up: maintenance, insurance, taxes, tires etc and then I have to store it somewhere. Nothing but downside there. Naw, I'll keep plugging along in the old beast till the sun cools. But if it's nice out, I ride the bike (45+ MPG) or drive the Jensen (22 MPG, would be better if it wasn't so much fun to drive aggressively). So I guess I am doing my part for the environment.