Xceler8x wrote: How the hell....? I was talking about jobs and banks using bailout money to pad their numbers for Wall St.
I am prone to tangents. You should see what my E30 project has turned into.
Xceler8x wrote: How the hell....? I was talking about jobs and banks using bailout money to pad their numbers for Wall St.
I am prone to tangents. You should see what my E30 project has turned into.
walterj wrote: I am prone to tangents. You should see what my E30 project has turned into.
I was just hassling you chief. We all enjoy a tangent here and there on this board don't we? I should've smilied that sentence to give it the correct feel.
except that when you understand fully how the tax system in this country works, you will see that 95% of the 'taxpayer money' that was 'given' to the banks actually came from the top 95% of our richest people and businesses. it essentially means that we give them back the money they gave in first place, which prevents them from going under. it doesnt matter how shady they handle the money ,as long as they stay in the game. sure, it may not directly create jobs, but by not creating unemployed workers (the thousands that would be out of work had these companies simply failed outright) at least you dont flood the lower class job market with a bunch of overqualified wal-mart greeters. it prevents the system from breaking down, at least temporarily. do i like the way it was handled? no, but i dont have a better idea, and as far as ive seen in the past 6 weeks, neither does anyone else...so all i can do is act on my heart, vote with my head, and hope to whatever force created this world i live in that it stays intact for the time being.
-J0N
Good point. Considering that the top 10% of earners in the nation pay over 50% of the income taxes collected, it could be looked at as simply a refund to keep them solvent.
On the other hand, the top few percent of the earners in the nation are not a stagnant group, but an ever changing segment of the nation's populace, with people moving into and out of that top percentage on an annual basis.
Another tangent: there was a 'luxury tax' passed a while back on things like yachts, private planes etc over a certain pricing threshold. That'll show them richies, right?
Uh, not. We'll take the boating end of things: The US boating industry's sales of boats costing over $100,000.00 dropped like a rock and consequently employment plummeted as those with a lot of bux took those sales overseas to escape the tax. It turns out the only people hurt by the tax were the boat plant employees. Congress repealed the tax in 1993 and it took a while for the industry to recover.
But if we impose "Windfall Profits" taxes on "BIG SCARY OIL," they'll certainly drop the price and create more jobs, right? I mean, that's just simple economics, right? Yeah, probably not. But at least I can sit on my fat lazy ass and collect my $1,000 "we berkeleyed them rich guys" check, along with my "earned income" tax-credit, and non-english speaking baby machine checks. Awesome.
poopshovel wrote: But if we impose "Windfall Profits" taxes on "BIG SCARY OIL," they'll certainly drop the price and create more jobs, right? I mean, that's just simple economics, right?
Of course they would. BIG SCARY OIL would NEVER just pass that windfall profits tax on to their customers...
or WOULD they? 
EastCoastMojo wrote: Just one more week... just one more week...
You're kidding, right?
The only change we'll see is who's in charge of this disaster we call a government.
SVreX wrote:EastCoastMojo wrote: Just one more week... just one more week...You're kidding, right? The only change we'll see is who's in charge of this disaster we call a government.
Just one more week and we can all quit arguing about this E36 M3 and go back to normal.
EastCoastMojo wrote:SVreX wrote:Just one more week and we can all quit arguing about this E36 M3 and go back to normal.EastCoastMojo wrote: Just one more week... just one more week...You're kidding, right? The only change we'll see is who's in charge of this disaster we call a government.
I wouldn't be so sure. Has anyone considered the possibility of McCain winning? By the time the racial discrimination and voter fraud lawsuits were over, we'd all be dead. Meanwhile I'm making the "That crackuh ain't MY president" stickers, just in case. I'll make MILLIONS, I tell ya'!
I suspect Mr. Obama may alienate a few baseball fans this evening. 
I'm not surprised at all. I have a post it note stuck to my computer monitor. Mrs Brown and Mr Martinez will not be keeping their jobs, Mr Nelson however gets to keep his!
Chris_V wrote: Good point. Considering that the top 10% of earners in the nation pay over 50% of the income taxes collected, it could be looked at as simply a refund to keep them solvent.
I agree with you. Out of all of this...I feel great knowing that the rich got a 'tax refund' voted to them by other rich people. One that was multitudes larger than the one I got. It's the least I can do for the wealthy. Ya know, sacrifice on my part to make their lives easier. I wonder if they'll ever know how good a peasant you and I really are to them.
Jensenman wrote: Another tangent: there was a 'luxury tax' passed a while back on things like yachts, private planes etc over a certain pricing threshold. That'll show them richies, right?
I KNOW! Thank goodness Bush did the right thing and lowered the capital gains tax. We all benefit from that don't we? Truth is...we might. But the rich...whoa nelly. They really benefit. I'm glad. The rich have it really tough. Especially in a recession like this. I mean..they could lose their job from layoffs. Have their house repossessed because they can't afford the payments. They could lose their health insurance because they were laid off! Oh wait. The rich don't have to worry about those "poor people problems". My bad. I was wrong.
poopshovel wrote: But if we impose "Windfall Profits" taxes on "BIG SCARY OIL," they'll certainly drop the price and create more jobs, right? I mean, that's just simple economics, right? Yeah, probably not. But at least I can sit on my fat lazy ass and collect my $1,000 "we berkeleyed them rich guys" check, along with my "earned income" tax-credit, and non-english speaking baby machine checks. Awesome.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT! It wasn't like "BIG SCARY OIL" made the most profit of any company in existence EVAR! Oh no they did'nt! Wait a min. Wrong again. They did.
I still say we should leave them alone. So what that each and every one of us paid $4 a gallon this summer. Who cares? At least they know that we're on their side. It will benefit us one day. I know it's true because the Voodoo economists...I mean supply-side economists say so.
btw - bonus points for whoever can remember who coined the term "Voodoo economics" and what the term referred to!*
Xceler8x wrote:Jensenman wrote: Another tangent: there was a 'luxury tax' passed a while back on things like yachts, private planes etc over a certain pricing threshold. That'll show them richies, right?I KNOW! Thank goodness Bush did the right thing and lowered the capital gains tax. We all benefit from that don't we? Truth is...we might. But the rich...whoa nelly. They *really* benefit. I'm glad. The rich have it really tough. Especially in a recession like this. I mean..they could lose their job from layoffs. Have their house repossessed because they can't afford the payments. They could lose their health insurance because they were laid off! Oh wait. The rich don't have to worry about those "poor people problems". My bad. I was wrong.
I'll let the others post their own answers. I'm just going to point out how you cherrypicked my original post and left out the part about how the boat manufacturers in the US were laying off people because the luxury tax sent the sales overseas.
If you knew anything at all about the capital gains tax, you'd know that it hits the middle class disporportionately. Let's say you buy a house to fix up and sell, after you pay for the house, repairs, renovations etc and get it sold you make $10,000.00. This falls under capital gains tax and the last I heard the top bracket was 28%. This means you now have to hand the government $2800.00 right off the bat, leaving you $7200.00. This applies only to the sale of investment real estate.
The capital gains exclusion is on the sale of your primary residence and it's only on the first $250,000.00, meaning if you are like the average goober and make about $75K on the sale of your home you can now keep that money. I'm not up on all the rules on primary residence, but I believe if you roll the profit from the sale of your primary residence into another primary residence, you avoid the capital gains tax altogether.
[sarcasm] I can see how this would clobber hell out of the rich folk and keep the common man down. [/sarcasm]
Xceler8x wrote: YOU ARE SO RIGHT! It wasn't like "BIG SCARY OIL" made the most profit of any company in existence EVAR! Oh no they did'nt! Wait a min. Wrong again. They did.
Go learn yourself about the difference between profit and profit margin. Then go learn yourself about how much profit margin the Big Greedy Oil Companies made in the last few years.
Duke wrote:Xceler8x wrote: YOU ARE SO RIGHT! It wasn't like "BIG SCARY OIL" made the most profit of any company in existence EVAR! Oh no they did'nt! Wait a min. Wrong again. They did.Go learn yourself about the difference between profit and profit margin. Then go learn yourself about how much profit margin the Big Greedy Oil Companies made in the last few years.
And while you are at it, calculate how many employees of the Big Greedy Oil Companies fed their families and paid income tax on the money they recieved from Big Greedy Oil.
Speaking of taxpayers being fooled, I just heard on NPR that a "housing bailout" may be close. Aparantly, something like three million homeowners who took out risky loans will get a crazy low interest rate and the gov'ment will gurantee the loan. So once again, responsible people get nothing, finish last.
EastCoastMojo wrote: Just one more week... just one more week...
Yes, Just one more week,,, and then the SUCKING really starts!
Gas prices are dropping below $2 a gallon and Exxon Mobil has crushed their Last quarter record.
You just know that President Osama bin Biden will change all that !
OLoLOOLLLLOo
Xceler8x wrote:Chris_V wrote: Good point. Considering that the top 10% of earners in the nation pay over 50% of the income taxes collected, it could be looked at as simply a refund to keep them solvent.I agree with you. Out of all of this...I feel great knowing that the rich got a 'tax refund' voted to them by other rich people. One that was multitudes larger than the one I got. It's the least I can do for the wealthy. Ya know, sacrifice on my part to make their lives easier. I wonder if they'll ever know how good a peasant you and I really are to them.Jensenman wrote: Another tangent: there was a 'luxury tax' passed a while back on things like yachts, private planes etc over a certain pricing threshold. That'll show them richies, right?I KNOW! Thank goodness Bush did the right thing and lowered the capital gains tax. We all benefit from that don't we? Truth is...we might. But the rich...whoa nelly. They *really* benefit. I'm glad. The rich have it really tough. Especially in a recession like this. I mean..they could lose their job from layoffs. Have their house repossessed because they can't afford the payments. They could lose their health insurance because they were laid off! Oh wait. The rich don't have to worry about those "poor people problems". My bad. I was wrong.poopshovel wrote: But if we impose "Windfall Profits" taxes on "BIG SCARY OIL," they'll certainly drop the price and create more jobs, right? I mean, that's just simple economics, right? Yeah, probably not. But at least I can sit on my fat lazy ass and collect my $1,000 "we berkeleyed them rich guys" check, along with my "earned income" tax-credit, and non-english speaking baby machine checks. Awesome.YOU ARE SO RIGHT! It wasn't like "BIG SCARY OIL" made the most profit of any company in existence EVAR! Oh no they did'nt! Wait a min. Wrong again. They did. I still say we should leave them alone. So what that each and every one of us paid $4 a gallon this summer. Who cares? At least they know that we're on their side. It will benefit us one day. I know it's true because the Voodoo economists...I mean supply-side economists say so. btw - bonus points for whoever can remember who coined the term "Voodoo economics" and what the term referred to!* * Answer here.
Please explain to me how increasing taxes on oil companies decreases the price of oil. Then, please give me the maximum percentage of income you think any individual should pay in tax. I'm listening.
Am I the only one happy when Exxon-Mobil has a good day?
http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1225396800000&chddm=1882&q=NYSE:XOM&ntsp=0
Now if you would all go out and by an IBM I'd be all set
Xceler8x wrote:Chris_V wrote: Good point. Considering that the top 10% of earners in the nation pay over 50% of the income taxes collected, it could be looked at as simply a refund to keep them solvent.I agree with you. Out of all of this...I feel great knowing that the rich got a 'tax refund' voted to them by other rich people. One that was multitudes larger than the one I got. It's the least I can do for the wealthy. Ya know, sacrifice on my part to make their lives easier. I wonder if they'll ever know how good a peasant you and I really are to them.Jensenman wrote: Another tangent: there was a 'luxury tax' passed a while back on things like yachts, private planes etc over a certain pricing threshold. That'll show them richies, right?I KNOW! Thank goodness Bush did the right thing and lowered the capital gains tax. We all benefit from that don't we? Truth is...we might. But the rich...whoa nelly. They *really* benefit. I'm glad. The rich have it really tough. Especially in a recession like this. I mean..they could lose their job from layoffs. Have their house repossessed because they can't afford the payments. They could lose their health insurance because they were laid off! Oh wait. The rich don't have to worry about those "poor people problems". My bad. I was wrong.poopshovel wrote: But if we impose "Windfall Profits" taxes on "BIG SCARY OIL," they'll certainly drop the price and create more jobs, right? I mean, that's just simple economics, right? Yeah, probably not. But at least I can sit on my fat lazy ass and collect my $1,000 "we berkeleyed them rich guys" check, along with my "earned income" tax-credit, and non-english speaking baby machine checks. Awesome.YOU ARE SO RIGHT! It wasn't like "BIG SCARY OIL" made the most profit of any company in existence EVAR! Oh no they did'nt! Wait a min. Wrong again. They did. I still say we should leave them alone. So what that each and every one of us paid $4 a gallon this summer. Who cares? At least they know that we're on their side. It will benefit us one day. I know it's true because the Voodoo economists...I mean supply-side economists say so. btw - bonus points for whoever can remember who coined the term "Voodoo economics" and what the term referred to!* * Answer here.
The "rich" are us. Simply put, our incomes and our "class" are transitional, with the top earners going up and down brackets annually. they aren't a static group of people insulated from the realities of the economy.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/income_mobility_in_the_united_states/
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/income_level_is_not_social_class/
Top earners always pay more both in actual dollars and in percentages than anyone else, and pay the bulk of income taxes in this country. But the scary thing is that it doesn't take all that much to be considered "rich" in this country, and end up being the ones that are being asked to foot the bill due to class warfare. If I were to sell my house this year, then I'd be in the top 2% of incomes in the US, and you'd say "you're rich you SHOULD pay a lot in taxes 'cause you can afford it!" And I say BS.
It's class warfare to be whining about the "rich" not paying enough when they already pay more, and when that particular "class" could be made up of any of us at any given time.
You guys are great. I was just in here busting up your "yeah! I love Republicans because they help the rich! Wait a min..I'm not rich." Party you were having.
On to the ball bustin!
Jensenman wrote: If you knew anything at all about the capital gains tax, you'd know that it hits the middle class disporportionately. Let's say you buy a house to fix up and sell, after you pay for the house, repairs, renovations etc and get it sold you make $10,000.00.
Are you talking about "McCain Middle Class" or everyone else's middle class? Most middle class folks I know are working two jobs and can only afford one (1) house. Where I grew up owning two homes put you solidly in the "well to do" category. Bush ain't helping out the middle class with a capital gains tax cut.
Duke wrote: Go learn yourself about the difference between profit and profit margin. Then go learn yourself about how much profit margin the Big Greedy Oil Companies made in the last few years.
You're right. I need to learn a thing or two. I then checked out this article in Us News and World Reports:
Exxon's Profits: Measuring a Record Windfall
It had this to say:
The oil industry urges people to look beyond its profits to its profit margin: about 7.6 percent of revenues late last year. That's not much higher than the 5.8 percent profit margin for all U.S. manufacturing, and if you exclude the financially troubled auto industry from that analysis, the oil industry actually appears less profitable than most manufacturers, which were earning 9.2 cents on every dollar of sales.
Well Dang. Looks like ol'Duke is right! I don't know squat! The nxt paragraph says:
However, profit margins across industries vary greatly based not on how well each business is doing but how capital- or labor-intensive it is. Oil is among the most capital-intensive. But look at the oil industry's profits compared with shareholder equity it has available for investment. The U.S. Energy Information Administration's most recent analysis of the oil industry's performance, released just last month, showed oil industry return on equity of 27 percent—about 10 points higher than that of other manufacturers. And it has been higher throughout this recent era of high world oil prices, just as it was back during the oil shock that hit in 1980.
So hey! I ain't so far off! Oil profits are high and higher due to high prices. Not something it would take Einstein or Warren Buffet to realize. High prices = high profits!
Well howdy! I am a smert fella!
poopshovel wrote: Please explain to me how increasing taxes on oil companies decreases the price of oil. Then, please give me the maximum percentage of income you think any individual should pay in tax. I'm listening.
Actually, I'm with Ron Paul on this one. I think we should all pay lower taxes. ALL. Not just the wealthy. Course, that would mean we'd have to stop paying for all these wars that have historically given us such a great return on investment (/sarcasm). We'd also have to stop socializing the banking industry by subsidizing Wall St. failures. Legalizing drugs and taxing them would also help our national solvency. Hell, if we taxed legal drugs that might even pay for a national healthcare plan instead of just letting our lawmakers have state subsidized healthcare. Imagine that. We could all have "Cheney-care" style health plans!!
But then that would mean that the R's would have to start talking about helping all people instead of just the rich, christian, and white. Why in hell would they do that? Short of the moral imperative to help fellow man and all that. Stupid morals.
Chris_V wrote: It's class warfare to be whining about the "rich" not paying enough when they already pay more, and when that particular "class" could be made up of any of us at any given time.
Newsflash there cochise.
You ain't gonna be rich anytime soon. We're on a board about racing cheap cars. This isn't the Motley Fool Rich Guys' Corner.
Sell your house. You won't even be a blip on the financial radar. We're talking obscenely rich here.
I found this great article in the NY Times while researching my other ball bustin' post. Check it out:
The 400 wealthiest taxpayers accounted for more than 1 percent of all the income in the United States in the year 2000, more than double their share just eight years earlier, according to new data from the Internal Revenue Service. But their tax burden plummeted over the period.
In the nxt paragraph they define the rich as:
The data, in a report that the I.R.S. released last night, shows that the average income of the 400 wealthiest taxpayers was almost $174 million in 2000. That was nearly quadruple the $46.8 million average in 1992. The minimum income to qualify for the list was $86.8 million in 2000, more than triple the minimum income of $24.4 million of the 400 wealthiest taxpayers in 1992.
I don't know about you...but I'm not going to be earning $87 million a year in the near future.
Keep dreamin because when stop dreaming it's time to die. (Thanks Shannon Hoon).
Another interesting tidbit from the article:
The rate actually paid by the top 400 in 2000 was about the same as that paid by a single person making $123,000 or a married couple with two children earning $226,000, according to Citizens for Tax Justice, a labor-backed group whose calculations are respected by a broad spectrum of tax experts.
So the top 400 earners in the U.S. pay the same tax rate as a single earning $123k or a couple, with a child, earning $226k combined. Remember, we're talking about a person paying that tax rate who makes 86 mill a year.
HELP THE RICH! THEY HAVE IT HARDER THAN ANYONE ELSE! I CRY BIG BIG TEARS FOR THEM AND THEY'RE OPPRESSIVE TAX BURDEN EVERY NIGHT!
Guys, come on. You're being snowed here. Just admit it and let's move on.
Xceler8x wrote:Jensenman wrote: If you knew anything at all about the capital gains tax, you'd know that it hits the middle class disporportionately. Let's say you buy a house to fix up and sell, after you pay for the house, repairs, renovations etc and get it sold you make $10,000.00.Are you talking about "McCain Middle Class" or everyone else's middle class? Most middle class folks I know are working two jobs and can only afford one (1) house. Where I grew up owning two homes put you solidly in the "well to do" category. Bush ain't helping out the middle class with a capital gains tax cut.
And again you cherry pick. Well done, sir. The example I gave, and which you quoted, is assuming that someone purchased a home with the express puropse of reselling ('flipping') the home. Many middle class folks do that in an attempt to become more financially self sufficient. My brother in Columbia is a good example; he recently bought a gutted condominium to renovate and resell. He damn sure ain't rich. He is self employed and he views this as a way to start building a retirement nest egg, since he doesn't have a 401k etc. He and I have sat down and gone over the numbers, if he's lucky he'll clear $20k after paying everything off and paying capital gains tax.
Let me know what happens when you try to buy/sell a piece of commercial property, like a rental house, as compared to buying/selling your primary residence. Or selling a second home.
I'll make it easy for you: the primary residence is subject to capital gains only under certain circumstances. The second, or vacation, home would always be subject to capital gains the same as a rental or commercial property.
http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq10.html
Yep, dem richies got da shaft dat time.
Jensenman wrote:Xceler8x wrote:And again you cherry pick. Well done, sir.Jensenman wrote: If you knew anything at all about the capital gains tax, you'd know that it hits the middle class disporportionately. Let's say you buy a house to fix up and sell, after you pay for the house, repairs, renovations etc and get it sold you make $10,000.00.Are you talking about "McCain Middle Class" or everyone else's middle class? Most middle class folks I know are working two jobs and can only afford one (1) house. Where I grew up owning two homes put you solidly in the "well to do" category. Bush ain't helping out the middle class with a capital gains tax cut.
Translastion- if you hold onto said second home for one year, one measly year, when you sell it, you pay only 15% tax on the profit you made.
Vs. ~35% for normal wages.
Hmmm.
I wonder if people will try to flip homes, and inflate the market?? Or get loans where the payment is low for a few years, and the baloons, since you only need to hold it for a year.... Hmmmm.
Imballance in taxes this bad leads to imballance in the market.
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