Martial arts thread?

In light of the recent thread on how to defend against a possibly violent stalker (ideally, with less than lethal force) I thought maybe we could talk about martial arts?

Im far from an expert, though I have watched more than one Bruce Lee movie. I have heard a couple (seemingly) useful bits to impart:

A "good" martial art is one that is effective against disciplines other than itself.

Like anything, exposure breeds familiarity/comfort. Being able to stay calm in a scrap is worth more than being able to punch hard. 
 

For me, this is a two birds with one stone situation. I want to be able to defend myself and my family if a situation ever arises. I also want a way to stay fit while being social. And any certain discipline is just that: discipline. I could certainly use more in my life. Good habits and routines and such. Also, the chance to learn a new skill and progress in my abilities is always rewarding. So maybe it's more like four birds with one stone. 
 

We currently have my 5yo in karate, and I did about eight seasons of krav-maga roughly ten years ago. That's it for my experience. 
 

As for actual self defense, like most Americans, we are armed. But, with small children in the house, the weapons are not kept loaded or in easy reach. This is not a discussion for weapons so let's leave the boom sticks in that thread. Aside from that, lethal force should be a last resort, and there are certainly many scenarios where weapons simply aren't available (aside from where use is questionable or poses external dangers). In short, THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR GUNS. 
 

Now we have all that out of the way, I'm sure we have some knowledge that can be shared, and we can all learn something new. So I'll start with my (1)thinking (as I'm looking to enroll somewhere soon) and a (2)couple questions. 
 

(1) In the interest of being effective physically, I'm leaning towards either Brazilian Jui Jitsu, or good old fashioned wrestling. My goal is to incapacitate any threat, not break noses. I don't want to fight, I want to stop a fight. 
 

(2a)What disciplines should I consider? I'm not large at 5,8 195lbs. I also have a history of concussions and I'd like to avoid impact: no boxing.

(2b) Where would one look to find reputable training? The short version is I don't want to learn Rex-Kwon-Do

Thanks for having the civil and knowledgeable discussions we have here. Y'all are great. 

1.  Martial Arts help in a situation, but plan on getting (less?) hurt.

2.  Fore warned is fore armed.  Don't walk around bragging with your chest all puffed out.  Some see it as a challenge.

I have trained in Tae Kwan Do and Penchak Selat.  I would consider Aikido.  It's pretty, fluid and they don't "take a stance" when confronted; they use your motion and respond with very little effort.  It's fun to watch.

I studied krav maga for 6 months and really enjoyed it. It's built on simple principles, instinctive movements, and practical techniques. I studied real world scenarios which is why it interested me. I am hoping to pick it back up in a few years time permitted. 

In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :

I spent several years studying very good practical self-defense focused martial arts. I have several thoughts on this.

I wouldn't hunt for a specific system or style. I'd hunt for the right school in your area with the best instructor whose mindset most closely matches your own.

Different styles often come packaged with different types of philosophies though, some of which will be more or less useful to you. I read an article once classifying different styles as: Martial Art, Martial Science, and Martial Sport. If your concern is practical self defense, you should look for a Martial Science. Any style will offer a bit of all three, but will almost certainly focus on ONE. Martial Art will be mostly about the ART - philosophy, discipline, tradition, history, practice, etc. (e.g. most Traditional forms - Tai Chi, Wushu, some Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, etc.). Martial sport will be primarily about training you to interact one-on-one in a specific environment with other practitioners of the same form in a competition with (e.g. boxing, judo, most jiu jitsu, some Tae Kwon Do, much of MMA). Martial Science will focus on how to presumably defend yourself in a real-world fight - this is most likely to be about the actual studio or instructor, but styles more likely to be proper Martial Science may be: MMA, Jiu Jitsu, Hapkido, Krav Maga, Systema, Pen Jak Selat...

From there, look at solidity of the style itself. The things I'd look for is that it is practical and gets some amount of stress testing. It should almost certainly be one that incorporates multiple ideas/philosophies/techniques and continues to evolve as people figure out what works and what doesn't.

The best way to come out on top in an altercation is to avoid one entirely. The best thing you can learn is situational awareness. To keep an eye out for trouble, and move to avoid it.

The next big thing martial arts will help you with is confidence and adopting behaviors that make people less interested in messing with you. Predators want to pick weak targets. If you clearly have situational awareness that someone can't trust they'll be able to take you by surprise, and you look like you'll be more ready to defend yourself, you'll be less likely to get attacked. Similarly, if you do come into a standoff situation where someone is threatening you and may or may not attack, the best way to defuse the situation is to be calm and controlled - neither looking scared like an easy target, nor antagonistic and threatening their ego. If a belligerent person can't get a rise out of you either way, they're liable to bluster for a bit and then leave.

Finally, what martial arts training will give you more important than technique, is practice and familiarity with continuing to act in a physical altercation. If you have sparred, it won't be the first time someone has punched you in the face.

Background on my studies: I did tae kwon do as a kid and a bit of tai chi in college. The system that I found most useful was a modernized American form of Hapkido (a Korean martial art focused primarily on clinching distance techniques - short, simple strikes, deflections and some basic joint control and lock techniques then some minimal ground work). My instructor was great and was a viet name veteran and retired police officer, so he was familiar with practical self defense realities. We incorporated things like psychological and legal concerns into training. Our basic stance looked a bit like a bare-knuckle boxer, but with open hands, palms toward the opponent - a very good position to strike, block, and grapple from, but open hands are not as immediately threatening and less likely to provoke someone. The studio itself was a wonderful mix and we had regulars who had lots of experience or were even black-belt instructors in other martial arts - specifically judo and jiu-jitsu. The instructor had good respect for these individuals and their styles and would frequently have them share the variations on different techniques that their styles taught, and would then have us modify things based on what they shared. The style was also surprisingly simple and was not so much about learning lots of new locks, blocks, and other techniques, but learning a handful of basic techniques and then practicing adapting them to different situations, angles, etc. The focus was not on beating an opponent into submission, but getting a significant upper hand to create an avenue where you could safely escape.

In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :

I have no training, but I stumbled upon this YT channel a couple years ago. He seems to show practical techniques for various scenarios, although while some of it definitely martial arts based, he doesn't actually get into any of the disciplines. Fight Science

Personally I'm really drawn to Russian Systema, but it doesn't seem to be offered at very many places in the US. 

I enrolled both my sons in Aikido from an early age at the recommendation of a family friend.  I had doubts initially, but developed a great deal of respect both for Aikido and for the Sensei.  Aikido is very much a defensive mindset, and as much about self-discipline as techniques.  I can unhesitatingly recommend Aikido, assuming of course that you have a well-respected Sensei in your area.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Exactly the sort of info I'm after. Thanks

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

A good teacher/sensei is most of what I'm nervous about. The guy I did lessons with before sure sounded great initially, but looking back, I'd not go to him again. 

Our hand-to-hand training in the army was super simplistic and dumbed down enough that when confronted with a threat you didn't have to think or remember much.

Certain things like knowing that there is no such thing outside a boxing ring as a "fair fight".  So hitting someone in the throat or the balls is super effective and less likely to hurt you with your strike.  Your legs are stronger that your arms so kicking someone is more effective than punching them.  If you must use your hands, holding almost anything makes you much more effective than being bare handed.  

That last is very important, whether you carry a collapsible baton in a hip pocket or start using a walking stick, just a small advantage like that can make a 100% difference in a fracas.

The best to martial art is the the one you are most comfortable doing.

I spent 5 years learning Shotokan not in a strip mall dojo but a church rec room my sensei rented out. He was in it for the love of martial arts, not to chase belts and trophys. 

We learned both the art and science of it, and he taught some very practical techique and sound ideals.

Beer Baron said:

Finally, what martial arts training will give you more important than technique, is practice and familiarity with continuing to act in a physical altercation. If you have sparred, it won't be the first time someone has punched you in the face.

Yep. It's important to learn is how to take a hit and hopefully keep moving. Judo and Aikido teach you how to fall or be thrown.

My father used to do a bit of Aikido. One time he was pick-pocketed and when he ran after the guy an accomplice tripped him, but he was able to roll out of it and see the guy run into a building. Police were able to arrest the thief.

j_tso said:

Yep. It's important to learn is how to take a hit and hopefully keep moving. Judo and Aikido teach you how to fall or be thrown.

I'd say any good martial art should teach you how to fall properly. Judo is probably the best at this. After that, I'd say Jiu-Jitsu, then Aikido and Hapkido.

Aikido has been mentioned several times. I would not recommend it for the OP's needs. It falls firmly in that "art" category and tends to do really poorly when actually stress tested. I'd argue one of the least "effective" martial arts. It is arguably one of the more fun, rewarding, and enjoyable to just practice. Much like Tai Chi, without as much practicing forms. However, I'd put decent Tai Chi as more practical teaching you how to really efficiently generate a lot of power (at 5'9, and about 170 lbs at the time, I could throw a ridgehand strike as hard as most people could kick).

If your goal is practical, styles like Aikido and Tai Chi can be great supplementals to other styles, but not what I would focus on.

The trouble with Jiu-Jitsu and Judo is that they are very grappling and groundwork focused. That's a really great way to dominate a single opponent, but it means you're tied up with them on the ground. There's a reason that tends to win MMA bouts. In the real world, I wouldn't want to go to the ground with someone in a bar, alley, or parking lot. I want to escape. You want enough ground training to still be able to fight if things go to the ground, but that's not where I'd want to intentionally take a fight, especially if the other person has a weapon. Unless your goal is to tie them up to give your *wife* more time to escape.

A big thing I highly recommend is a style that teaches open-handed strikes. Boxers and MMA fighters don't wear gloves to not hurt their opponents. They wear gloves to not break their hands. If you break a hand, you are now about half as effective. Even though you *can* punch safely with a closed fist, it's easy for a target to move just a bit, and suddenly your punch isn't aligned properly any more. With an open hand, you can wail pretty much full strength and leave a lot of room for error.

Beer Baron said:
Unless your goal is to tie them up to give your *wife* more time to escape.

This is more my thinking. I generally don't worry about things if I'm out and about. I don't live in a rough area and I don't hang out at bars. But, if I'm home and say someone comes in and is between me and my family, I'm not taking a shot that can miss. I'm not a macho man that's going to exchange words and escalate anything. And I'm not ever going to pick a fight. Frankly if someone wants my stuff badly enough to steal it, with few exceptions, I'd let them. As long as I'm between the bad guy and my family that is. If he's between them and me, I need to change that, without risking the safety of anyone but myself. 

Well, I read that thread title wrong.

In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :

Yeah. There is no perfect martial art that works in every situation.

Given the background of your concern about a specific person that might take an interest in your family, that changes the math a little bit. Something that incorporate Jiu Jitsu style grappling with basic striking would probably work well.

Look for something that gives you options at striking distance, clinching (standing close enough to grab and elbow), and on the ground. You want something that's mostly defensive but with options to take the fight to an attacker if they're between you and your family (again, something like Jiu Jitsu instead of Aikido or even Hapkido). Bonus points if the style incorporates a few basic weapons - knife and stick - built on the same movements as the empty handed techniques.

Beer Baron said:

Look for something that gives you options at striking distance, clinching (standing close enough to grab and elbow), and on the ground. You want something that's mostly defensive but with options to take the fight to an attacker if they're between you and your family (again, something like Jiu Jitsu instead of Aikido or even Hapkido). Bonus points if the style incorporates a few basic weapons - knife and stick - built on the same movements as the empty handed techniques.

This. I wrestled competitively in high school, did a bit of boxing and took E36 M3o Ryu. I drew insight from all three when moving to the next, and all three helped me be comfortable in different situations.

Based on that, if I had to go and start from square one, I'd go with a mixed martial art of some kind- MMA, Krav Magra, etc. Or plan on training in multiple disciplines. You don't have to be a black belt in karate or world champion boxer to be able to defend yourself well. Hell, in some cases, being an expert in a style might hinder flexibility in situations that are outside the context of that style.

These days, the school is going to matter most. The dojo where I trained karate was more about sparring and self defense and less about the history, etc. We sparred every lesson, even if it was just for five minutes. Practice and familiarity instills confidence and muscle memory.

I have studied Woo Hau Style Tai Chi for years. But then, I'm an old man, I'm 6'1 and that's what works for me. In the past when I was younger I studied Karate and Ju Jitsu. 

I would try several styles and see what works for you. I am always amazed by the self defense uses of the form I study, even though I use it primarily for health and maintaining balance at my age. You already have some good suggestions on this page. 

I'm 5'7" and about 177lbs. 

I started in wrestling as a kid and did it until I was 18.

I also did BJJ and Muay Thai for a few years in my 20s. Currently, my son and I do MMA training with some days specifically focused on BJJ. For work we also do hand-to-hand training every once in awhile. As an adult, I haven't found myself in actual physical altercations in the CONUS.

In my opinion, the most practical is something hybrid since most altercations turn into grappling after a few seconds. Stay in shape as most people cant fight for a moderate amount of time, fighting for 3 minutes is like playing an hour of a lot of other sports. I probably spend about 10 hours a week actively sparring.

My goal is to incapacitate any threat, not break noses. I don't want to fight, I want to stop a fight.

When it comes to defending yourself and your loved ones: Once you decide to confront the problem with violence, be as efficient and as violent as possible to stop the fight. That requires fighting or more. 

This is a zombie thread.

So what ended up happening? Did you take anything up? How's it going?

In reply to Beer Baron 🍺 :

Nothing ever happened. Life got busy and time goes by. 
Im still interested in the subject, but apparently not enough to make it a priority. My wrists haven't improved any and while my confidence is still growing after my surgery 3 years ago, I'm still a little wary of my neck. Idk. I keep 34 nasty little boys in a quick access safe, so at least it's something. 

Meh, not afraid of no zombies!

I had studied Song Moo Qwan Tae Kwan Do up to 1st degree BB then life got in the way.  After bicycling season ended I found a local church that has a pastor that is a 4th degree BB and runs a school at the church.  So I am transitioning in to Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwan Do... almost all different forms but the basics are the same.  (And, yeah, it's a great thing to jump back into while in the middle of chemo!)

I'm mostly worried about being attacked walking to my car from a store or the mall. I carry my 3" ignition key grasped in my palm sticking out between my second and third knuckles. Hopefully I will be able block the other guy's first swing and then move in close and jab him in one or both eyes and a couple of times in his throat. If I don't have any keys, I plan on using my thumbs. (Which I have seen used to end a fight before it started)

I've only been in 2 fights in my life, I was called out in the 5th grade and the 7th. I lost both fights. I than started caring a heavy steel ruler in my math book that I used to stop the 3rd fight by hitting the jerk in the hand as hard as I could.

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

Best simple self defense tool is a flashlight. Takes away the ability of people to hide. If someone does attack you, wave it in their eyes.

Literally the easiest self defense tool to use. Useful in nearly all situations. Way more effective than people expect it to be. 100% legal.

If you want to use keys for self defense, don't stick them between your fingers like budget Wolverine. Hold the key much like you would just putting it in a door, in line with your thumb. Just like you would poke someone with your thumb. I wouldn't even bother though. Bare hands are going to be a more effective tool 98% of the time.

Beer Baron 🍺 said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

Best simple self defense tool is a flashlight. Takes away the ability of people to hide. If someone does attack you, wave it in their eyes.

Literally the easiest self defense tool to use.

Especially a 3 D cell Maglite... you don't want to get hit with it and it will blind you

In reply to triumph7 :

Nope. The best one is the one you are going to carry with you.