Maybe I should get an EV after all…

Chatting with my mom about my friend's EV ownership and I think I just accidentally talked myself into wanting one:

"I think for him, EV ownership has been primarily - if not solely - a financial decision. And apparently it makes sense in some circumstances. I, for one, would be happy with ANY newer vehicle, but it would be nice to have fewer things to go wrong. And ESPECIALLY fewer coolant things. It seems like that's been the bane of my car ownership

Camaro
88 and 86 Accords
Town and Country
Grand Caravan
Z4
Audi
Cadillac
Mustang
Cavalier
Lumina
RX-7

Now, the Jag was indeterminate suspension issues, the Dynasty, Olds, and Bonneville were the transmissions, the Prelude was oil consumption and upcoming $$$ suspension work, and the full size Ford van was rust, but for most of the rest, it's been coolant-related problems. The Saab *did* have coolant issues, but eventually it was the rust and indeterminate odd clunking sounds that prompted me to get rid of it. The Saturn, Taurus, and the Neon were sales of working cars for $$$."

To be clear, I'm not in the market, and to be honest, my car woes probably have more to do with buying old POS crapcans than with ICE issues

*old POS crapcans apparently to include 4 year old Dodges

uhmm, I hate to tell you this... but EV's have radiators also.

Have you considered an air cooled car sir? 

Yep the non-golf-cart-like ones all have liquid cooling systems, although they run at lower temperatures and pressures. Full operating temperature for an ICE would be around emergency shutdown temperature for an EV. EVs do have a very complicated switchable cooling system manifold for moving heat between the heat pump, drive systems, cabin and radiator as needed in different conditions though. So I expect that system will be less troublesome on EVs but not by a whole lot. The major reliability improvements will be in the motor and drivetrain.

I know an EV would work for me as a work/DD vehicle.   If the prices of the Tycan keep falling or maybe an etron I may have to take a serious look. The way the power comes in to my house and the location of the breaker box is extremely well suited to install a charger should I get an EV.  

Besides motor oil, EVs still use all of the same fluids that ICEs do. They have heat exchangers filled with glycol. They have hydraulic friction brakes with brake fluid. Some have multi gear transmissions, differentials, etc. All of those fluids need to be replaced on the same schedule as they do in ICEs, so no real cost savings there. 

The added weight and torque can lead to pretty accelerated tire wear too.

More and more locations are charging extra to register an EV each year as well. Looks like MI is currently charging $160/yr on top of regular registration fees for EV owners. That annual increase can completely eliminate any savings from a lack of oil changes or whatever.

So an EV will skip out on ICE specific maintenance like oil changes, ignition systems, timing belt/chains, exhaust leaks, etc. But they can have increased costs in other areas like tires, registration, insurance, etc. How much does that add up over your intended time of ownership? If you're buying brand new and keeping it for 100k miles, you're not likely to see much maintenance on most reliable models. These types of maintenance really only apply if you're keeping the vehicle for a few hundred thousand miles, or if you're a good GRMer and buy used because you trade a low entry price to inherit other people's problems.

I think there are really only two certainties when it comes to EVs:

- If you can charge where you park, they're super convenient commuters.

- They have no tailpipe emissions to create smog, so en masse they can have some meaningful benefits for local air quality.

Any other benefits kind of depend on where you are, what you choose to drive, and how you use it. There's a lot more variability than there is with ICEs. Gen 2 Prius math is about the same wherever you live. That's not true for EVs.

Saw not one, but two Cybertrucks at the Wawa yesterday, both painted flat black.  Parked next to one and briefly chatted with the guy.  Said he'd had it for about a year and really liked it--even towed with it.  It really didn't seem much bigger than the CX-9.  I could maybe see myself in one.

STM317 said:

Besides motor oil, EVs still use all of the same fluids that ICEs do. They have heat exchangers filled with glycol. They have hydraulic friction brakes with brake fluid. Some have multi gear transmissions, differentials, etc. All of those fluids need to be replaced on the same schedule as they do in ICEs, so no real cost savings there. 

Randomly, I looked up the egolf service intervals.  The ONLY fluid that has scheduled replacement is brake fluid.  The brakes themselves last forever because of regen.  A quick look suggest the Taycan is exactly the same despite the multigear transmission.  Maintenance intervals on the Taycan are 2yr/20k miles.

The coolant in an EV lives a charmed life compared to an ICE.  Everything under the hood does as well because temperatures are so low.  BTW, there are only two multi gear transmission EVs, the Taycan/e-tron GT twins.

In reply to mfennell :

In the rust belt, EV friction brakes can need to be replaced due to corrosion from lack of use, long before they need to be replaced for loss of pad material, etc. EV drivers should definitely stay on schedule with brake maintenance, even if they rarely get used.

As for coolant, things can vary a lot.

- Rivian suggests replacing battery coolant and drive unit fluid every 112k miles.

- Tesla says that their battery coolant lasts the lifetime of the vehicle, but does note that dusty locales can see higher rates of clogged radiators, requiring service.

- Ford Mach E says 200k miles for the battery coolant, but the whole coolant system needs to be inspected every 10k miles.

- Hyundai says the inverter coolant should be replaced every 35k miles, the reduction gear fluid should be "inspected" every 32k, and the battery coolant should be replaced at 120k miles

Yeah, EV fluids certainly have an easier time--lower temps, much less combustion byproduct contamination, etc. 

One of the best financial and mental decisions I ever made was buying a heavily depreciated Nissan LEAF. Why? Because one morning in my early 20s, I walked outside to a driveway full of cars. I think I had four or five on the property at the time. Then, I called a friend for a ride to work. 

I realized that I should probably have one "real" car, a true appliance that I wouldn't modify/ruin/render inoperable. And a car with modern amenities, creature comforts, and reliability. After a few spreadsheets, I landed on two final contenders: The Hyundai Genesis Sedan, and the Nissan LEAF. Why those two? Because they, at least according to my math, were the absolute peak of insane depreciation and lots of creature comforts. 

I drove the LEAF for years, and it's a primary reason that project cars like the 350Z, V6 Miata, Fox and others were able to happen. My life got much, much, much better when I stopped working on my daily driver every weekend.

After years of trouble-free service, I sold it to a fellow GRMer in 2021, and you can follow its journey here:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/for-sale-my-2012-nissan-leaf-sl-6500/183317/page1/

You're moving the goalposts.

All of those fluids need to be replaced on the same schedule as they do in ICEs, so no real cost savings there. 

Your examples to not support this.  What's a Ford Mustang coolant change interval?  Trans?  Diff?

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to argue about this.  Ask anyone who has owned an EV how routine service compared to the ICE vehicles they owned before.

In reply to mfennell :

Of the things you listed, the only one that is actually different due to the combustion engine is the coolant. The trans and diff don't care about the input device. So....

mfennell said:

You're moving the goalposts.

All of those fluids need to be replaced on the same schedule as they do in ICEs, so no real cost savings there. 

Your examples to not support this.  What's a Ford Mustang coolant change interval?  Trans?  Diff?

I'm really not sure why you feel the need to argue about this.  Ask anyone who has owned an EV how routine service compared to the ICE vehicles they owned before.

Maybe so. Sorry. I guess my main point, is that many people think EVs are like cordless drills. "You just charge them and go, and they need little other maintenance." Or "They're so cheap because no gas or oil changes"! But EVs are still cars. They don't have an ICE obviously, but they do still have all of the other systems needed to go down the road, and those things still need to be maintained and serviced. The actual cost savings can be pretty minimal when extra registration fees, more frequent tire consumption, potentially higher insurance costs, etc are all counted.

I'm not an EV hater at all. I don't own a BEV, but I do have a PHEV which has been a terrific commuter appliance for me. I enjoy the EV driving time and I'd be open to an affordable, efficient EV for my next vehicle. I just think that many people overlook the actual total costs of owning an EV (true for ICE as well), or they fail to consider how different EV ownership prices can be depending on living situation, location, and usage. A homeowner, with solar on their roof in CA and friendly government policy is going to have a different experience than a renter, or somebody living in a place with less EV friendly policy. Everybody should do the math for their specific situation, because ownership costs seem to vary a good deal more with EVs than they do with ICEs.

I've owned a few EVs. Three Teslas and a first-gen Volt. My highest mileage/age Tesla was a 2014 S Performance that I sold with 140,000 miles or so, back in 2023. I never changed a drop of any fluid, and as far as I can tell, I wasn't supposed to (I mean... I asked Tesla, and they said "we used to have service intervals, but we've moved away from that. Just drive, and if it breaks, bring it in" lol). Everything worked perfectly, even the air suspension, and the battery was still chugging along perfectly happily with about 80-85% of its capacity.

I love my ICE cars, but one of the primary motivators for me was the greatly-reduced maintenance schedule for the Teslas (and even the Volt), because I drive a lot. I did a little over 30,000 miles last year somehow. That's six oil changes if I was driving the A4. Six. That's once every other month. I don't have time for that. Plus, EV or not, Tesla makes a nice car.

I think the tire problem is mostly solved now. My current Model Y is at 35,000 miles now, on its original tires, and they look like they've got another 20,000 miles in them. It's the performance, so they're the Michelin Pilot Sport all seasons. Sticky in the summer, great in the snow, long-lived. This tire life is par-for-the-course for me--I never saw more than 40,000 miles out of tires on anything I've ever owned.

But there are tons of EV options. I'm not a diehard Tesla guy. Mustang looks great, everything Kia/Hyundai are making would be great to have, and the VW Buzz looks super fun (but it seems to be a generation behind on tech for some reason).

If you want to try it out, try it out. It won't change your life either way--it's just a different power train.

Well said--I drove 35,098 miles last year, many of those in EVs, and couldn't agree more. 

If you follow most OEMs, oil changes happen every 10k miles. Plug change are over 100k. Trans fluid same as EVs. Coolant probably close to 100k now. 
 

Most dealers tell you to change things twice as often. Since that's a place they make money. 

I think you all are forgetting on very important point here:

    The man is cursed

Coolant does NOT like him and seeks to escape any vehicle he operates.

I say, buy a 65 bug and get on with your life.   You can go Porsche also, if you have the means.  I am here to council on a coolant free lifestyle, if needed.

I would say Corvair, but man, I would guess there would be fan belts flying everywhere with this guy's curse!   

The obvious answer in that case is Citroen 2CV

I still want a BYD Seagull Hachback. Yes. In that color.

My bookkeeper has a Tesla. She drives it between Montreal and British Columbia every summer. She has taken numerous long distance trips south as well. Every second weekend she drives to visit her boyfriend 7 hours away over several mountain passes. She just told me spent $720 charging her car in 2024 to drive 26430 km. (She did not do the Montreal trip this year.)

I don't care what the motive power source is. It has to make economic sense plus be an attractive, comfortable and quick vehicle. For her the Tesla has been the perfect vehicle in that sense.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I'd be curious to see the comparison on a Leaf and a Corolla. I keep saying that my next car is probably going to be an EV, but I just don't drive enough for it to make financial sense. 
 

If my financial situation was different - if the last 6 years hadn't gone the way they have - I'd probably be in one though. Having spent 2-3 weeks with one, I love them for day to day living. And the idea of never again having to fill up at a gas station is very appealing (in the last 10 years, I'd have had 4 trips that would have required more than one 20 minute stop, and an average year would have 14 stops for about 20 minutes - 7 round trips). 

At least at the time, a used Leaf was about half the price of an equivalent Corolla, nevermind the drastically cheaper fuel. So that was a big factor. But yeah, never having to go get gas is also fantastic.

I think I totaled it up at one point, but I daily drove the Leaf for 3.5 years and my total cost including buying and selling the car, maintenance, fuel, and insurance was less than $4k total. 

FYI at this time it seems like a lot of first-gen Leafs are pretty close to challenge pricing. My neighbor just picked one up for his teenage son for $2500. His take on it was the range is so abysmal compared to modern EVs nobody wants them. Seems like a non-issue for the money if you just need a commuter, but I don't pretend to know much about them.

Matt B (fs) said:

FYI at this time it seems like a lot of first-gen Leafs are pretty close to challenge pricing. My neighbor just picked one up for his teenage son for $2500. His take on it was the range is so abysmal compared to modern EVs nobody wants them. Seems like a non-issue for the money if you just need a commuter, but I don't pretend to know much about them.

What kinda cold weather range are we talking about? 

Under the frunk in an Audi Etron.  Nope, no coolant here....