Mechanic etiquette?

I'll preface this by saying, I never really take my car in to get worked on. So I'm not sure what's considered normal.

Our pontiac vibe has been leaking trans fluid from the bellhousing. I pulled the engine and replaced the converter shaft seal and it was still leaking. I no longer had time to work on it so we decided to take it in. They diagnose it as the same thing, and after a month they finally from me they get it done. Well guess what, it's still leaking. They want to pull the trans again and have the pump looked at. I trust the mechanic as he's a friend's brother who has helped me quite a bit on my own projects.

Anyways, to the question.  When something gets misdiagnosed like this, is it normal to charge the labor to do it a second time? Obviously I understand people need to get paid for their time. Just curious if it was routine.

I understand, when taking to a mechanic, that if they are wrong that it might cost me to fix it again. 

That said, some will, when realizing their mistake, not charge full labor costs. But I'd expect to, worst case scenario

I want to clarify something real quick, you replaced the seal, then they replaced the same seal?  I assume you told them what you had done?

As to labor costs, it depends a lot on the shop.  Some will take it into account, some will tell you tough luck.  You usually end up paying a portion of the labor again (unless its a chain and you complain to corporate, but it sounds like you might not want to go that route.)

I'd go in and just have a conversation with them.  

As an aside, when I was a service writer, I'd always make sure that I took care of the customers that stayed calm and spoke to me politely.  The ones that yelled and cussed?  "Well I'm sorry sir, that is the price.  I can speak with the manager about it and get back to you?" 

Funny thing, the manager never looked out for anyone but the store's bottom line as that is how he got his bonus at the end of the year.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

That is correct. The brother knew I had replaced it, as when we got it back together I was concerned it was still leaking and talked to him. I also explained in detail to the owner everything that was done to it to the best of my ability.

I'll be honest, I only took it to this place because I know the mechanic, and I figured I'd support him. However the owner has not been the easiest to deal with. The car had sat at the shop for a month now, but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I stopped in last Thursday to just get an ETA and was told that they were going to finish it the next day. I called them yesterday morning because I hadn't heard anything and they still had done nothing  to it. I got a whole story on how nobody wants to work, and my car isn't priority so I should just deal with it or take it elsewhere. So while I probably sounded annoyed, I would never yell and get angry. They ended up getting it finished yesterday only to find out it's still leaking. 

I did talk to him this morning, and he said he'd give me a good deal on it, but honestly, I'm nervous of what his definition of that is. I don't particularly  like this guy after this experience, so I just wanted to verify what traditional practices are. Add on to that they just replaced the part that  had already been replaced, on a job with $1000 worth of labor, I'm a little annoyed I would have to pay for their misdiagnoses.

We'll see what happens. It is what it is, and I'll pay the bill

Oh hell, I missed that it sat for a whole month without anything being done to it (I'm not going to comment on the "nobody wants to work" crap.)

My previous post was more along the lines of dealing with a shop that hasn't given you issues.  This shop has a few.

You might want to cut bait, but I'll let others chime in.

In the world of customer service awesomeness, you probably shouldn't have to pay labor.  In the real world, no shop will suck up 8 hours of labor because they're a nice person.  It's one thing if you have a brake pad fail, but there is no way I could suck up $700 to replace a $2 part, especially with the liability involved.  Removing and engine or transmission has a very high probability of crushing/ripping a wire, whacking a brake line, or cracking a fuel line.  Not to mention the side things like coolant, a wasted radiator hose clamp that might decide to break, etc.

I always make sure that the customer knows that no repair is necessarily final until it is.  Someone comes in for brake pads and comes back later talking about how they don't feel right, I might find a swollen hose that no one noticed in the short time we had it.  I had one where the customer said it's leaking coolant and we found a leak at the thermostat neck.  It was dripping down over the water pump and off the crank pulley.  Fixed the water neck leak and a week later they were back complaining that it still leaks.  There was also a small leak at the water pump which we couldn't originally see because it was covered with coolant from the water neck.  Customer tried to pull that "you didn't fix it so this should be free," and we had to really talk them through the fact that it was a different repair and we weren't going to do it for free.

Long story short.... you approved repairs.  It didn't fix the problem, which means (assuming they did the repair correctly) that it's something else.  Should they have diagnosed it better?  Maybe.  Did you both nick the seal when you installed the TC?  Possibly.  Stuff like this happens all the time.  You go to the doctor and say "hey, my back hurts." and the doc gives you a script for Percocet.  Percocet doesn't work so they do an X-ray and see a slipped disc.  You don't get your money back for the Percocet, and the resulting surgery isn't free.  That's kind of flippant, but just an analogy.

In the future on stuff like that it might be helpful to make clear up front what you expect.  They might tell you to pound sand (I know I would) but at least you'll both have a better expectation.

Shops work on a pretty basic financial structure.  For instance when I was running a shop I charged $95/hr for labor and about $25/hr to the tech.  Everything was book/flag hours so if the book said a Hyundai CV axle job should be 1.8 hours, they get paid 1.8 hours.  Parts markup was usually in the area of 10-20%.  At the end of the repair, our profit has to pay the bills AND cover warranty stuff.  So if that CV axle ends up being faulty, I get a new axle (parts store will warranty it so no cost to me), but I have to suck up that 1.8 hours.  My warranty exists because I made a profit before, but warranty repairs cause me to lose nearly all the profit I made.  In the case of removing an engine, that's a huge loss to have to eat.

That's a tough call. You rely on their diagnostics and pay them a ton of money based on their "expertise." $1000 and they've fixed nothing is not a fair exchange. You didn't say "replace this seal," you said "diagnose and repair this leak," of which they've done neither. 
 

I see where Curtis is coming from, but at the same time shop expenses and warranty work is a shop problem not a customer problem. I've been on both sides of this issue as a computer tech and I felt more like Curtis when I was a tech and less like that when I was the customer. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

You mean you didn't take the store up on the labor cost too? I mean it's cheap, typically less than $50/hr, but it's completely billable back to the store you brought it from. Used to do that all the time especially with retread auto parts.

Since you told him the story up front about changing it yourself, as a (former) mechanic I would go into this thinking that A) you may not know what you're doing and bungled the install or B) something else is the problem. They should have been looking hard for the real cause of the leak. Proper customer service says they failed to diagnose it correctly and you should only be on the hook for the labor of one trans removal and whatever parts get installed. But I doubt you're gonna get that. When a customer car sets on the lot for a month untouched, that's a sign of a real E36 M3ty shop.

In reply to dculberson :

 I think the way you put it explains my thoughts perfectly. I understand where Curtis is coming from, but I'm not sure I totally agree. It's an unfortunate situation for sure.

Ranger50 said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

You mean you didn't take the store up on the labor cost too? I mean it's cheap, typically less than $50/hr, but it's completely billable back to the store you brought it from. Used to do that all the time especially with retread auto parts.

None of them covered labor.  Zero.  Not a thing when I was doing repair.  WorldPac offered it as a paid "insurance" kind of thing for a while, but the process of making a claim required weeks of waiting, red tape, and we couldn't give the customer back their vehicle.  It had to stay torn apart until WP sent someone to look.

In reply to dculberson :

Completely agree.  From the business side there is just no way to turn a profit if you're giving away free labor.  From the warm fuzzy side (which I would have loved to do all the time), you paid for a service that wasn't done to your satisfaction and you should be treated fairly.

If you look at the numbers, if we were to cover every sneeze and sniffle, the insane money we would have to charge customers Tom, Dick, and Suzy just to cover the freebie for customer George would price us out of the business.

I did work at one shop where we turned enough profit that I could be a lot more generous on general repairs.  It was a transmission shop, so the retail pricing already had to be ample in case we had to yank it and do it again, so if someone didn't like the spark plugs I put in I was like "sure, would you like Bosch Platinums?  Come in tomorrow."  The big secret there was that situation favored paying a tech hourly.  My labor costs were fixed.... which was good as long as I sold enough work for him to do.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Stuff like this happens all the time.  You go to the doctor and say "hey, my back hurts." and the doc gives you a script for Percocet.  Percocet doesn't work so they do an X-ray and see a slipped disc.  You don't get your money back for the Percocet, and the resulting surgery isn't free.  That's kind of flippant, but just an analogy.

I think this is 100% the correct analogy.

People assume that auto repair is simple and shops are making money hand over fist. When something goes wrong they think it's incompetence and want a refund. 

In reality it's a fairly difficult trade and nobody is getting rich. Unless you have reason to suspect the tech was careless in his diagnosis (and remember that you agreed with him)...

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

I was offered part ownership of a shop and I not-so-politely declined.  I'll stay in the trenches and actually make money.

The last shop I worked for was remarkably honest and it was such a good vibe.  NBraun... in the first shop I worked we would have spun your repair.  The tech would have said something like "well, maybe it's a leaking pump seal" with an implied wink.  Once we have your sign for more money we could get paid to go back in for more surgery and we would have been certain to find the problem so it didn't happen again.  I left that shop within a couple months because I didn't want to be there when a lawyer showed up.  The owner was also really good at putting profits up his nose and berating his managers.  The day he threw a phone book through a window I just walked out.  He was puzzled why I didn't come in the next day.  The last place I worked was wonderful.  I was easily making $2000/wk and I never had to fudge, lie, spin, or exaggerate.  I shot straight, the techs I hired were aces at their craft, and they knew to talk straight with me.  If they berkeleyed up, they told me, but it was incredibly rare.

The problem is, every shop regardless of how good or shady they are has three types of customers:  1) the kind that doesn't know anything so you can't explain why they're incorrect, 2) the kind who knows enough that they think they know as much as you and you can't explain why their incorrect, and 3) the kind like us who actually knows what they're doing and think that means they can outsmart the shop, so you can't explain why they're incorrect.  (that's a snarky generalization, I'm not saying you are any of the above).

One of my favorites was a lady who brought us her Mercedes W140 because it sometimes revved up without moving.  We test drove it and realized that it was stuck in 3rd and the fluid was black.  This lady had grown up in NYC, went to school in NYC, and worked in NYC and never drove a car.  When she retired she got a license, bought a Mercedes, and drove to TX to be with her aging parents.  We rebuilt the transmission and she sued us.  She said it sounded different and it was jerky and she wanted us to put it back the way it was.  I asked her to come along with me on a test drive so she could point out what was wrong.  It shifted from 1st to 2nd and she said "THERE!"  I said "that's just the transmission shifting gears."  She looked at me like I was the lyingest liar to ever lie and said, "Shifting??? It never did that before."

No E36 M3, lady.  She almost won the lawsuit until we had four different shops verify that it was, in fact, supposed to shift gears.

When I was a tech, this is how this scenario woukd go down. 
Scenario 1 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you it's the seal. It still leaks. 
i eat the labor, 100% because I didn't diagnose it properly. 
Scenario 2 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you that it's common to knick the seal installing the TC. I explain that I can replace the seal, but it could be the pump. I can replace the seal now for $xxx, or could replace the pump and seal for $x,xxx. 
The devil is in the details of what they told you. If they said the seal will fix it, they should eat at least 1/2 the labor. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I really do appreciate your input on this. I think I'm more irritated about the circumstances of dealing with the owner than anything. Had he called me the day after I dropped it off and said hey, we were wrong, its actually this, well that would probably be a different story

NBraun said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I really do appreciate your input on this. I think I'm more irritated about the circumstances of dealing with the owner than anything. Had he called me the day after I dropped it off and said hey, we were wrong, its actually this, well that would probably be a different story

Having been on both sides, I know exactly how you feel.  I've been the person who got the call that says "it will be another $800 to fix it."  I've also been the guy having to call you and say the same thing.  I think the real difference is the heart of the person doing the call.  I left that shop because every time I made that call I had a lump in my throat knowing I was asking this person to roll over and give me more money because the owner was a douchebag.  I think some people who make those phone calls derive pleasure from winning your money.  Those are the ones that really chap my butt.

I'm very sorry your'e in this situation and I hope it will get resolved.

DrBoost said:

When I was a tech, this is how this scenario woukd go down. 
Scenario 1 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you it's the seal. It still leaks. 
i eat the labor, 100% because I didn't diagnose it properly. 
Scenario 2 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you that it's common to knick the seal installing the TC. I explain that I can replace the seal, but it could be the pump. I can replace the seal now for $xxx, or could replace the pump and seal for $x,xxx. 
The devil is in the details of what they told you. If they said the seal will fix it, they should eat at least 1/2 the labor. 

There have been times when I told the tech to eat the labor if he/she was obviously at fault.

I had a tech doing something to a Suburban, probably a trans fluid and filter.  He had the back glass up and it hit the garage door and smashed when he put it on the lift.  He told me what happened and admitted he messed up.  I found a back glass at a local junkyard for $60 and I decided to eat it because the tech was a real seasoned pro and it was just a mistake.  I told the customer what happened and he was cool.

So the glass shows up, the tech puts it on, vacuums up the broken glass.... then proceeds to do the exact same thing 5 minutes later.  His nickname after that point was Shards the Dumbass.

I made him pay for the next window.

DrBoost said:

When I was a tech, this is how this scenario woukd go down. 
Scenario 1 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you it's the seal. It still leaks. 
i eat the labor, 100% because I didn't diagnose it properly. 
Scenario 2 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you that it's common to knick the seal installing the TC. I explain that I can replace the seal, but it could be the pump. I can replace the seal now for $xxx, or could replace the pump and seal for $x,xxx. 
The devil is in the details of what they told you. If they said the seal will fix it, they should eat at least 1/2 the labor. 

Scenario 2 is what I learned as a service writer.  The "weasel words" are important.  You have to leave room for human error.

Mr_Asa said:

DrBoost said:

When I was a tech, this is how this scenario woukd go down. 
Scenario 1 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you it's the seal. It still leaks. 
i eat the labor, 100% because I didn't diagnose it properly. 
Scenario 2 - you pay me to diagnose the leak. I tell you that it's common to knick the seal installing the TC. I explain that I can replace the seal, but it could be the pump. I can replace the seal now for $xxx, or could replace the pump and seal for $x,xxx. 
The devil is in the details of what they told you. If they said the seal will fix it, they should eat at least 1/2 the labor. 

Scenario 2 is what I learned as a service writer.  The "weasel words" are important.  You have to leave room for human error.

"So you're just going to parts cannon this repair instead of just finding out what's broken?" - customer said that to my face and I refrained from punching them straight in their face.

Rear main seal leaks in my '93 Lightning, because 351W. But, it wasn't doing it when I bought the truck, so let's fix it. Except removing the transmission is not something I do at my age.

Take it to local shop with good reputation. "It's the oil pan gasket," they tell me. I doubt it, but hey, it's on your lift and you're looking at it so go ahead. They do. I pay money.

Truck comes back to my garage and still drips oil on the floor, just as before.

Back to shop. "It's the rear main seal."  Well no E36 M3, Sherlock. Pay more money.

Truck comes back to my garage and still drips oil on the floor. It now also drips ATF, which is nice.

Fire first shop. Take truck to second shop. Tell them to fix trans leak and I no longer care about the mildly annoying rear main seal weeping.

Two attempts. Trans still leaks.

I fix it myself. New trans pan, because too many ham-fisted "professionals" had warped the gasket surface beyond repair. 

Decide there are no decent repair shops and resign doing all my repairs myself.

When I had the clutch done on the Branger I just bought all the parts; flywheel, clutch kit, throwout, pilot bearing instead of bushing, slave, master.  Rear main had a slow drip so I had them replace that as well.  When I got it back, the rear main now had a steady leak.  I don't really blame them, it could have been a crap part.  I know the tech is totally competent and was an SAE tech for a Ford dealer for 20 years before working at this shop.  I just started parking on a piece of carpet and carried a quart of oil.  My attitude was "we tried," and it wasn't worth going back in.

If I'm digging that far into the center of a drivetrain, it gets everything.  Never more frustrating than replacing an $8 part that requires 9 hours of labor.  Just "while you're in there."  I'm also not going to skimp and get the $2 version of that part.  I'm getting the platinum unobtainium deluxe version.