A MIG-23 crashed today during the "Thunder Over Michigan" airshow. I knew the show was on as there were jets overhead several times this afternoon. Jet just missed an apartment building and the pilots ejected safely. Lucky no one was killed.
A MIG-23 crashed today during the "Thunder Over Michigan" airshow. I knew the show was on as there were jets overhead several times this afternoon. Jet just missed an apartment building and the pilots ejected safely. Lucky no one was killed.
Pootin will issue a press release tomorrow, praising great Russian engineers who design plane so smart it (1) can not be flown by imperialist pigs or (2) recognizes pilot is imperialist pig and goes into crash mode.
Well, it didn't hit/kill anyone; on the PLUS side, it was an air show. Not a U2 scenario.
I'm always amazed that live air shows are still allowed, other than 50 miles out in the desert. They remind me just a bit too much of Mustangs leaving a Cars and Coffee.
Wonder if this was the plane? Be quite the coincidence since I just watched this video today.
In reply to NOHOME :
I read in one news report that YES it is that plane and that pilot.
There was a guy restoring these at the Lancaster, Texas airport south of Dallas a few years ago. At one time he had about 18 of them flying or under restoration. I wonder if it was one of these.
Scary scene, and kind of a miracle that nobody on the ground was hurt. I've been to that air show many times, though we've skipped it the last few years. It's gotten pretty expensive.
Sounds like the pilots landed in the lake next to the apartments, and they were really lucky it landed in a field next to the apartment. Crazy.
Damned lucky that no one was killed with the plane coming down in a suburban area like that.
I'm guessing a hydraulic control failure, can't think of any other reason to eject from a plane that's cruising along with a running engine...
GameboyRMH said:I'm guessing a hydraulic control failure, can't think of any other reason to eject from a plane that's cruising along with a running engine...
Stuck throttle. Binding flight controls.
has anyone here flown in an airshow? does the pre-flight info include places to ditch to minimize casualties? on one hand, i don't want to see the pilot die in the crash. OTOH, it's pretty irresponsible IMO to eject in suburbia.
and i'm gonna IBTL my own post, just because.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I had the same thought. Do you eject , or fly into the ground away from buildings?
They definitely should be doing pre-show safety briefing, but I don't know if they call out crash zones. Honestly, that really should be mostly the pilots responsibility, but certainly not a bad idea to give some suggestions.
Seeing the video, it looks a bit like an engine failure of some sort. You can hear the engine (but it might be idling) but you can also see the plane is in a significant slip as it turns and is loosing altitude which seems to indicate a very low airspeed. Not rolling out of the turn is interesting, but it kind of looks like they ejected before it stalled.
I thought they did not allow ejection seats in privately held planes? Maybe I was mistaken, maybe they changed the rule. You can see why flying such a plane without one would be very scary, but you can also see (by this example) why giving the pilot the easy way out can have bad side effects.
(looking it up) Looks like they do have regulations around (as of 2016 at least). It basically requires rigorous maintenance and a training program:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-87.pdf
I am wondering if they modified the ejection system on it. First of all, dealing with a Russian build ejection seat has some obvious potential issues, and, I am pretty sure, although obviously pretty funky, Mig 23's ejected through the canopy! You can see the canopy fly off in the video. It's obviously a two seat trainer, so maybe they were different(?)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:has anyone here flown in an airshow? does the pre-flight info include places to ditch to minimize casualties? on one hand, i don't want to see the pilot die in the crash. OTOH, it's pretty irresponsible IMO to eject in suburbia.
and i'm gonna IBTL my own post, just because.
I have as a flight crew on a Huey at Valdosta, and yes, we checked our route before the show at low speeds and had a safety briefing every day with the air boss. I also did ground crew at dozens of air shows including the big one at Patrick AFB and remember the pre-show checks happening.
myf16n said:GameboyRMH said:I'm guessing a hydraulic control failure, can't think of any other reason to eject from a plane that's cruising along with a running engine...
Stuck throttle. Binding flight controls.
Binding flight controls would be a slightly different good reason to eject, but there could be plenty of other ways to deal with a stuck throttle, if it was stuck at a high enough level to continue flying. The way they ejected from the plane while it was still flying with no obvious attempts to make corrections suggests that an unrecoverable loss of control had already happened or was just about to - possibly due to a loss of thrust leading to a stall, if the throttle was stuck at idle.
That stinks. Luckily no one was hurt. I still can't over the B-17 and P-63 collision at the Dallas air show last year.
On one of the roads out of the panhandle of Florida, heading towards Alabama, right near the state line, there is a gentleman that has a MiG-25 on his front lawn. Quite the roadside attraction.
I'd still rather see one fly at an air show though and all for them. The great thing about them is you can still typically watch them from afar without having to pay the inflated price of attendance as I did for many years with the Tyco Air Show in Titusville.
It's too soon to know if the aircraft was uncontrollable or if they had insufficient thrust to maintain flight. Nothing in the various videos suggests anything particular failure, hydraulic, pneumatic, throttle, etc. We're all just guessing.
The aircraft wasn't flying straight and level. We'll soon learn if the crew were along for the ride, or if they actually pointed it away from obvious inhabited areas before jumping out.
I was an ejection seat mechanic on many fighter and attack aircraft in a prior life. In aircraft equipped with ejection seats the saying is: "You eject when your fear of flying the aircraft overcomes your fear of flying the ejection seat." It is very uncommon to NOT be injured during an ejection.
I've observed two crashes where in an attempt to save lives on the ground, the crew stayed with the aircraft too long. In one of those events the crew survived. In both events there were no casualties on the ground.
Another datapoint: In military aviation the 'rule' is that if you are out of control at or below 10,000ft, you are to eject. Some stay with it to try and reduce injuries to civilians or damage to buildings. Some are trying to recover control / restart the engine(s). I've never heard of a pilot getting into trouble for staying with the aircraft below 10K. I know of pilots not surviving an ejection due to initiating it too late (regardless of altitude).
In reply to Javelin and myf16n :
thanks for your replies. i appreciate your perspectives.
myf16n said:
... or if they actually pointed it away from obvious inhabited areas before jumping out.
it will be interesting to hear what the pilots have to say. i assume any plane in an airshow has comms with the control tower. has anything been reported on that?
"You eject when your fear of flying the aircraft overcomes your fear of flying the ejection seat." It is very uncommon to NOT be injured during an ejection.
i know that's a very serious statement, but i LOL'd just the same.
I've observed two crashes where in an attempt to save lives on the ground, the crew stayed with the aircraft too long.
i'd guess "too long" is highly situation-dependent.
aircooled said:I thought they did not allow ejection seats in privately held planes? Maybe I was mistaken, maybe they changed the rule. You can see why flying such a plane without one would be very scary, but you can also see (by this example) why giving the pilot the easy way out can have bad side effects.
(looking it up) Looks like they do have regulations around (as of 2016 at least). It basically requires rigorous maintenance and a training program:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-87.pdf
I've quoted ejection seat harnesses to commercial vendors in the US before, and I've only been in my current position at my company for 2 years. Those companies are ones that offer either aggressor squadron aircraft or "be a fighter pilot" experience programs. The latter is a bit scary, IMO.
There were a couple F4 or 104's (they just look like a lawn dart) that were based at Clearwater airport years ago. The biggest issue they had flying them was they had to have the ejection seat disarmed. The other issue was the coastguard wanted notice if they were going to taxi by their hanger so they could close the doors. It seems they were loud enough to knock stuff off shelves in the back of the hanger.
There was an air show team that flew an F104 (or F104s?) a few years back, that might have been them. Looks like they still exist. Is this what they planes looked like?
But yeah, that is what I am remembering also. I guess they changed it. Darryl Greenamyer did build up his own F104 from parts years ago to try and set a speed record. He did set some speed records but when he was going for an altitude record, at some point he could not get the left gear to lock down and you DON'T want to gear up land an F104! He ended up ejecting over Edwards Air Force Base. This was in 1977, so maybe there was no reg at all about that then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darryl_Greenamyer
https://www.i-f-s.nl/red-baron/
Small tidbit of info: If you listen to the video, the ejections make a "pop" sound, not the "thrrssssst" sound you would expect. This is apparently because those seats (which apparently are original to the plane) essentially use an explosive, not a rocket like the typical Martin Baker style seat. I would expect they are rather violent (rocket seats are violent enough!) and considering the age of the people that typically own and fly such planes, I would expect there are likely notable ejection injuries involved.
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