Minimum Wage hike, you for it?

Nope, nope, nope. Re: living wage - extra nope.

Bobzilla wrote: There is no "one answer solution" that you're looking for. It can't happen. Every case is different. Artificially bumping the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't going to fix ANYTHING in the long term.

Neither will not doing anything. Neither will removing minimum wages, or removing taxes, or removing government.

We can't change human behavior overnight, but we can make slow progress.

Ya know. Progress.

Bobzilla wrote: You sure you want to stick with that answer? That looks to me like the minimum wage has been INCREASING for decades.

The dark graph is "nominal dollars" which is just a number. The light graph is "2013 dollars" (as in inflation-adjusted) which indicates value...looks like it only had an uptick in the late 00s.

Edit: And one in the 50s...so yeah there's some increase going on but not much. It's lower now than in the '60s, '70s, some of the '80s.

Bobzilla wrote: Why are you having children you can't pay for?

As you say there's no one answer. What if you've been married for years with 2 kids, you find your spouse has an STD, has been berkeleying prostitutes, has a girlfrind and has been blowing $1,000's on phone sex so you divorse him. Then you go to school and try to hold down a part time job while trying to look after the kids. Then you get cancer. Only a sample size of 1, but I know a person in that situation.

PHeller wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: There is no "one answer solution" that you're looking for. It can't happen. Every case is different. Artificially bumping the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't going to fix ANYTHING in the long term.

Neither will not doing anything. Neither will removing minimum wages, or removing taxes, or removing government. We can't change human behavior overnight, but we can make slow progress. Ya know. Progress.

We could try educating the poor in how to not be poor. We could offer ASSISTANCE. Not a subsidized wage, but HELP them out of their hole. Continually making poor decisions isn't helping them though. Can't afford a child? Let's have one anyway, the gov't will pay for it.

I alluded to this in my previous post, but I really fear that if they were to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, we would lose a LOT more manufacturing type jobs overseas to places that don't have such strict labor laws. I really have no problem paying somebody a living wage--but at some point I cannot do it, because it costs too much.

So where does globalization come into this? Are we going to impose more taxes on imports from certain nations? Otherwise I do not see how this will lead to anything but fewer jobs in the US.

Hungary Bill wrote: I should elaborate a bit: I'm not in favor of the federal minimum wage being raised. For those states with a higher than average cost of living I think it is the states responsibility to set that states minimum wage sufficiently. If the federal minimum wage is to be raised I think it should be done proportionately to an increased cost of living, no the other way around.

I'd rather see it set at the state level, too - different states have very different costs of living. A dollar can go a lot further in Alabama than in California.

And pegging it to inflation instead of having Congress (or state legislatures) having to sign off on it directly would also be a good idea, given how sometimes it appears to take an act of God to get an act of Congress.

mtn wrote: I alluded to this in my previous post, but I *really* fear that if they were to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, we would lose a LOT more manufacturing type jobs overseas to places that don't have such strict labor laws. I really have no problem paying somebody a living wage--but at some point I cannot do it, because it costs too much. So where does globalization come into this? Are we going to impose more taxes on imports from certain nations? Otherwise I do not see how this will lead to anything but fewer jobs in the US.

Stop bring reality into a personal subject.

Bobzilla wrote: We could try educating the poor in how to not be poor. We could offer ASSISTANCE. Not a subsidized wage, but HELP them out of their hole. Continually making poor decisions isn't helping them though. Can't afford a child? Let's have one anyway, the gov't will pay for it.

What about people who were once rich who are no longer? Plenty of factory workers are in this situation. Plenty of average any industry workers are in this situation. Think you've got a stable job, buy a house, buy a car, decide to have some kids, lose job, home value plummets, and suddenly your looking for government assistance.

The job may never come back (like many manufacturing jobs) the house may never sell (as many plighted areas have not) and moving will make it worse. Maybe.

mtn wrote: I alluded to this in my previous post, but I *really* fear that if they were to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, we would lose a LOT more manufacturing type jobs overseas to places that don't have such strict labor laws. I really have no problem paying somebody a living wage--but at some point I cannot do it, because it costs too much. So where does globalization come into this? Are we going to impose more taxes on imports from certain nations? Otherwise I do not see how this will lead to anything but fewer jobs in the US.

Agreed, but where did $15 come in????? Why do people keep insisting on $15/hr Also I don't think manufacturing jobs are the ones making minimum wage, it tends to be more the the retail and service industry's.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: You sure you want to stick with that answer? That looks to me like the minimum wage has been INCREASING for decades.

The dark graph is "nominal dollars" which is just a number. The light graph is "2013 dollars" (as in inflation-adjusted) which indicates value...looks like it only had an uptick in the late 00s. Edit: And one in the 50s...so yeah there's some increase going on but not much. It's lower now than in the '60s, '70s, some of the '80s.

If you look, the graph shows what manyhave already been saying. When the MW was raised, there was a short spike before the market adjusted and that increased dollar amount came back down, many times lower than before it was raised.

Raising MW is only going to cause a spike in inflation and make the cost of goods rise. Those that are above the MW level will suffer the most because they will no longer have the buying power with the same dollars they are making.

Bobzilla wrote:

fritzsch wrote: Yes, the minimum wage has been decreasing for decades.

You sure you want to stick with that answer? That looks to me like the minimum wage has been INCREASING for decades.

HArd to read and I'd say deliberatly misleading graph. What abou this. In real terms the minimum wage has been losing ground for 4 dacades

Bobzilla wrote: If you look, the graph shows what manyhave already been saying. When the MW was raised, there was a short spike before the market adjusted and that increased dollar amount came back down, many times lower than before it was raised. Raising MW is only going to cause a spike in inflation and make the cost of goods rise. Those that are above the MW level will suffer the most because they will no longer have the buying power with the same dollars they are making.

Then how is it higher now than in the '40s, and lower than the '60s-early 80s? Shouldn't it be about the same level if this is true?

And this theory still requires an explanation for the "mystery container" where money goes when it's not going into low-wage jobs, where it's out of the economy preventing inflation. Either that or a radically new theory for how inflation works.

Minimum wage should be regularly adjusted for/tied to inflation. If the average price of goods goes up, and the average wages for non-minimum wage postions goes up, then so too should the minimum wage. Seems pretty simple to me, otherwise it slowly defeats the entire purpose of having a minimum wage...Which probably also has something to do with the reason it hasn't been allowed to keep up over the years.

What if minimum wage was tied to inflation and adjusted for cost of living?

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

mtn wrote: I alluded to this in my previous post, but I *really* fear that if they were to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, we would lose a LOT more manufacturing type jobs overseas to places that don't have such strict labor laws. I really have no problem paying somebody a living wage--but at some point I cannot do it, because it costs too much. So where does globalization come into this? Are we going to impose more taxes on imports from certain nations? Otherwise I do not see how this will lead to anything but fewer jobs in the US.

Agreed, but where did $15 come in????? Why do people keep insisting on $15/hr Also I don't think manufacturing jobs are the ones making minimum wage, it tends to be more the the retail and service industry's.

$15 is what they are shooting for (or so I have heard), so it is what I'm using. It will likely end up being 9 or 10.

Manufacturing jobs average 30 something an hour apparently. So you're right, but I feel like if minimum wage jobs get pushed up, everything has to get pushed up by some extent. Otherwise, why wouldn't you work the easy job? (Yes, I realize not all minimum wage jobs are easy)

The topic of minimum wage is all based around income disparity. Getting more money from the pockets of super rich people into the hands of people who need the incentive to join the workforce or stay in it.

It seems to me that minimum wage should allow someone to scrape by without the help of government, and social assistance programs like food stamps and cash assistance should help someone who CANT work.

The problem is that there is virtually no difference between working 1-2 part time jobs are minimum wage and sitting on your ass doing nothing getting government assistance.

We've got make working more attractive than not working and for many low-income Americans, not working is getting easier and more comfortable.

In reply to PHeller:

I agree that MW should be enough to allow that person to live without gov't assistance. It is. Where the problems arise is when you try to raise a family on MW jobs.

I lol'd

In reply to Bobzilla:

It's enough to live on if you're willing to live in the crappiest, unsafest part of town, not save a dime, have unreliable transportation or use the bus, and eat the unhealthiest foods available.

Then comes the question of "moving up".

How does one move up up the economic ladder when they live in a hell hole, don't own a car, have no savings, and are unhealthy?

Looks like the problem isn't necessarily the minimum wage jobs, but rather, the lack of an alternative.

What the graphs above don't indicate is what percentage of the population is relying on minimum wage. It's fine for a teenager; for a thirty-something with bills to pay, not so much.

In reply to Bobzilla:

People trying to support a family on minimum wage jobs is but a symptom of the real problems that have created this scenario, and which not one politician or political group of note has the intestinal fortitude or moral fiber to actually stand up and fix for the betterment of our entire society.

PHeller wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: It's enough to live on if you're willing to live in the crappiest, unsafest part of town, not save a dime, have unreliable transportation or use the bus, and eat the unhealthiest foods available. Then comes the question of "moving up". How does one move up up the economic ladder when they live in a hell hole, don't own a car, have no savings, and are unhealthy?

Again, comes to region. There are places in this state that $17k a year is decent income and you could be purchasing your own home.

PHeller wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: It's enough to live on if you're willing to live in the crappiest, unsafest part of town, not save a dime, have unreliable transportation or use the bus, and eat the unhealthiest foods available. Then comes the question of "moving up". How does one move up up the economic ladder when they live in a hell hole, don't own a car, have no savings, and are unhealthy?

• Dont be a costas.
• Work harder than the other people in your shoes.
• Win

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