Minimum Wage hike, you for it?

4cylndrfury wrote: wouldnt be hard to live on that money if you werent paying for a cell phone with data, cigarettes, and video games. I have extended family getting aid from the state due to low income. They have nicer electronics than I do...

While I have and do argue hard that the current minimum wage is too low and that these people need help, I do grant you have a very good point here. I'm lucky, I have a very good job and am well compensated but I don't have a personal cell hone (company provides a dumb phone, no smart phone at all), I don't smoke, we have no cable TV etc. Yet many people claim that stuff is necessary, I grant you it's not. YOu can get a pay as you go dumb phone for very very little outlay, probably even zero for the phone itself and DVD"s are free from the library.

PHeller wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Yes, there will always be freeloaders, but I think most are working hard for what they have.

And the harder you work, the more youll be compensated. People should not expect to get $50k a year jobs instantly.

They should just expect them after 20-30 years in the workforce and a few decades worth of experience. A lot to look forward to, right? I've been in the workforce for 13 years and I only recently broke the $20/hr barrier. Chances are I'll never break the $40/hr barrier.

I've been in the workforce for 25 years, in the same job for 13, and I broke $20/hour ~ 2 years ago. Not all jobs are created the same and thus they should not pay the same based on some arbitrary figure an bureaucrat came up with. I'd love to make a lot more but its not going to happen without a major investment in education and training.

I think everybodies idea of hard work varies.

For some people, hard work is showing up early. For others its staying late. For some its hustling, others its focus (which I lack).

Again, my issue is more with income distribution than handouts to lazy people. I am infuriated by the idea that a 7' tall kid who is dumb as rocks but can manage to bounce a ball a few times can get paid millions of dollars to play a game, while I'm here making sure people don't get blown up in the middle of the night making peanuts by comparison.

And so I will bow out of this topic.

Because socialist.

Lifes not fair.

I find it curious that this thread gets created instead of "Are CEO's paid to much, and what is appropriate?" didn't come up first.

If Forbes is to be believed, and you know what a hive of liberal re-distribution-ist thinking Forbes is, the price of a Big Mac wouldn't go up at all if employees were paid $15/hr.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/07/30/how-much-would-a-big-mac-cost-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-per-hour/

This kind of reminds me of that point in the Wizard of Oz where the big talking head yells that people are to ignore the man behind the curtain.

To the OP: I suggest we raise it.

4cylndrfury wrote: Lifes not fair.

There's a big difference between fair and giving people in the wealthiest nation at least a chance of a reasonable life. It's also about allowing people to stand on their own feet rather than being forced to rely on Government hand outs.

PHeller wrote: I think everybodies idea of hard work varies. . I am infuriated by the idea that a 7' tall kid who is dumb as rocks but can manage to bounce a ball a few times can get paid millions of dollars to play a game

Well, sorry. He does. Deal with that. Just because youre offended or insulted by something, doesnt give you arbitrary power over things.

PHeller wrote: I'm here making sure people don't get blown up in the middle of the night making peanuts by comparison.

Sorry to hear youre being forced to do that job, and you have no control over that situation....oh ...oh youre not being forced, its your decision? Well, then I guess that ones on you.

I used to change oil and brake pads on the cars of Vice Presidents and CFO's and what not. Without the brakes I installed, theyd die. I made $1/hour, even though I was "saving their life" with knowledge and skill they didnt poses. They made probably 15 times what I made. Thats life.

Lifes not fair.

I don't believe anybody here has actually endorsed raising the minimum wage to the point of offering a family of four a life of comfort and luxury, so it's ridiculous to keep using that scenario in defense of a position against raising the minimum wage...Much like some of the other stereotypes being cast towards current minimum wage earners who want it increased, such as not currently using the position it as a point to move up from. Raising the minimum wage to keep up with inflation does not remove the incentive to move up in the world, nor does it make the cost of living rise any faster for the rest of us than it equivalently should. It simply will restore, and should subsequently maintain, the same livability of a wage that has been continued to become less livable with the passage of time.

Regarding the $15/hr minimum wage that fast food workers were after, that gets people up in arms about, it's widely known that you'll almost never get everything you ask for in negotiations...So the traditional approach, from both sides, is to come in with higher demands than you are looking for with a willingness to bargain to a reasonable level. Nothing new here.

The arguments that seem to imply an employee's work ethic gives them complete control over their wage and employment status, is little more than a laughable delusion.

Or do the people against raising the minimum wage actually believe substantially lowering, or entirely eliminating, the minimum wage would be better?

The arguments that seem to imply an employee's work ethic gives them complete control over their wage and employment status, is little more than a laughable delusion. It is an important ideal, and is certainly a positive contributing factor towards success, but there are also a lot of people who have had a lot of things happen entirely outside of their control.

PHeller, I've been toying with a career change and am amazed at the entry level wage for those who are sworn to protect us. I've moved from the mail room at $9/hour to my current position making more than double that in 13 years thanks to hard work, dedication, and a bit of luck by being in the right place at the right time ( thanks to a retiring coworker). I took a $3/hour paycut to get my foot in the door too because I saw the potential for a career. Also do not compare a professional athlete's salary to your own. 1 wrong move and they are done for life. Also sponsors pay a huge portion of that salary. Yes its ridiculous but I can't do what they do and they can't do what I do.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: Lifes not fair.

There's a big difference between fair and giving people in the wealthiest nation at least a chance of a reasonable life. It's also about allowing people to stand on their own feet rather than being forced to rely on Government hand outs.

What is preventing them from bettering their situation on their own? What stands between them and the "chance of a reasonable life" ?Why must it be a matter of statute? No one is forcing them to do anything. People rarely plan to fail, they often fail to plan.

PHeller wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Yes, there will always be freeloaders, but I think most are working hard for what they have.

And the harder you work, the more youll be compensated. People should not expect to get $50k a year jobs instantly.

They should just expect them after 20-30 years in the workforce and a few decades worth of experience. A lot to look forward to, right? I've been in the workforce for 13 years and I only recently broke the $20/hr barrier. Chances are I'll never break the $40/hr barrier. It seems the only reason I've gotten here is because I've hopped from job to job always looking for higher pay and I've talked up the last position enough to make it sound important. I've never had any luck "moving up" within a company and I can't imagine doing that at my first job out of highschool (catering or grocery store).

I've been in the workforce for 20 years and I've still not broken the $20/hour barrier. I've been with my current employer for over 9 years and have moved up/made more. so?

Less than 3% of the US population is paid minimum wage.

Unemployment rate nationally is currently 7.3%.

An increase in the federal minimum wage will lead to a direct increase in the cost of goods and services provided by minimum wage workers- things like fast food, gas, and groceries. All things that impact the poor most directly.

It seems pretty obvious that an increase in the Federal minimum wage will:

• Not help very many people,

• Raise the cost of living to those who can least afford it.

• Not open opportunities for more jobs, but only encourage employers to further limit hiring, and decrease hours worked for those workers whose wages just increased by the largest percentage (minimum wage workers).

So, no. Absolutely not.

Besides, it totally ignores regional influences. Skilled workers where I work (skilled construction trades, high level office administrative staff, healthcare workers) earn about $15 per hour, and can live reasonably well with our low cost of living. With a Federal mandate of $15 for minimum wage, what will these people make, and why should anyone work to gain skills if the net result is the same amount of money they can make flipping burgers??

It's really stupid to try to control local economies from Washington DC.

I'd be all right with raising minimum wage if it was only raised for people who were born before 1996 or have graduated high school.

That way I, as a non-parent, get something back for the taxes I pay for other people's children to go to school in the form of cheap labor for those who turn their backs on the education i am forced to pay for. Any argument for me to have to pay those taxes I can use to justify punishing them; there's no excuse for not finishing high school or getting a GED.

Toss in a mandatory home econ class in high school and maybe we could incentivize bettering oneself enough to not need to raise minimum wage as much.

What I don't get is why we, the 99% advocates not ourselves, but instead for the preservation of 1%.

The chances of any of us ever becoming millionaires is pretty damn insignificant compared to the chances of us needing a good paying second job, or a good paying first job, or a government service to help us get back on our feet.

I would much sooner pass up things I don't need like fast food or fancy color schemes at the grocery store for the assurance that if I ever need a job at one of those places I'd get paid decently.

By saying "people shouldn't get paid $15/hr to flip burgers" your essentially saying "people shouldn't get paid $15 million to bounce a ball." There are certainly a lot more burger flippers out there than professional basketball players.

If they raise the minimum will they decrease my taxes since fewer people will be on the dole?

Doubtful.

No, it's not that at all. It's the idea that you want to limit what someone can do. When you preserve the "1%" you preserve the chance for anyone to become that 1%.

taking away all incentive to work hard and improve yourself does nothing but kill society.

I guess i just dont get it. I wet to a pretty crappy school. Crappy enough that they actuallu discouraged us from "higher education". Durig high school i was working minimum wage. Didnt like it. Went to voc-tech and learned a trade. Got a job in that trade making not much more than minimum wage. Wasnt terribly happy witht that. Learned all i could from the older guys around me, took on more challenging jobs. Boss saw a good worker, sent me for more training. Learned all i could and kept working hard. I was a mechanic but kept looking for more challenges, always saw rewards. Now i can support a wife, 3 kids, and a small car habit. Sorry, but if I can do it, so can anyone.

pres589 wrote: If Forbes is to be believed, and you know what a hive of liberal re-distribution-ist thinking Forbes is, the price of a Big Mac wouldn't go up at all if employees were paid $15/hr. http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/07/30/how-much-would-a-big-mac-cost-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-per-hour/

But that article says that the reason the price won't go up is because McDonald's will lay people off. So pay less to more people (as is now the case) or pay more to fewer people and nothing to some people.

Guess you just hope you're not one of those laid off.

In Reply to Dr Boost: Agreed. I don't get it either. There are so many options available. All of them take hard work and sacrifices. You just have to choose to do it. If you don't, it's not my problem.

At this point, we are no longer just preserving the 1%..We're pushing the 1% further away from everybody else, making the opportunity to join the 1% more and more unobtainable for ourselves in the process.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Lancer007 wrote: that's the motivation to move past these entry level jobs. If you are only motiviated enough to ask "Do you want fries with that?" For 10 years then you aren't motivated enough for a house in the burbs and a newer car. I got my first job at 14 when MW was 4.75, busting my ass, learning the value of a dollar and after the first week deciding that I wanted a better paying job so I made the most of opportunities that I could. I'm tired of people trying to re-frame what is "fair". Life is tough, not everyone lives in a $400,000 house. You don't get a trophy just for participating. No one cares if your feeling get hurt.

That's pretty insulting to millions of people who are working minimum wage jobs and trying to move up. Yes, there will always be freeloaders, but I think most are working hard for what they have.

the point I was trying to make is that working at MW job for more than a year you would almost have to go out of your way to not move up to a better paying position or at least develop some skills to get a better gig. Spending 10 years as a MW fry cook means you've put no more effort into your job than showing up, breathing through your mouth and doing as little as possible. Most fast food places will help you on a management track if you have some sense and put out an effort.

I'm not disparaging people like that divorced from an abusive deadbeat with 2 kids. My mom raised my borther and I as a single mom after my dad passed away when we were very little. We never went without but didn't have luxuries that people feel entitled to today. She never had designer clothes or bags, we never took 2 week vacations, soda and eating out was a treat.

Its a sad fact that a large portion of people living below the poverty line are there because they feel entitled to live beyond their means. Capitalism is basically Darwinism but with money.

Sorry for the long winded post.

4cylndrfury wrote:

aircooled wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: ...If minimum wage goes up, retailers know the market has more dollars available, so they will in turn raise prices to get more of those newly-available dollars. Its called free-market, supply and demand, what-have-you.....

I am pretty sure the free market does not work like that.....

If you think that retailers wont raise their prices in response to a national minimum wage increase, well, you should reconsider that position

Simply because there is more money is changing hands, no I don't. You are saying retailers will increase profit margins just because people are making more money. Supply and Demand is not supply of money, it's supply of product.

What exactly compels retailers to "raise prices to get more of those newly-available dollars"? Or more relevantly, what keeps them from not doing it?

If you are saying cost will go up, so prices go up, then you may have a point, but that is not what you wrote. You were stating something completely different.

In reply to Will:

That article also spells out previous math that puts a fairly insignificant change in cost. I think the greater point is that this sort of change in wages is not going to drive extreme changes in item or service cost because a lot of costs involved aren't wages.

DrBoost wrote: Sorry, but if I can do it, so can anyone.

How might your story have changed if your starting wages had been roughly half of what you were fortunate enough to be allowed to earn? Can you say with absolute certainty that you still would have had the desire and ability to go to a voc-tec to learn a trade that also paid half as much early on, ultimately still ending up exactly where you are now?

aircooled wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

aircooled wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: ...If minimum wage goes up, retailers know the market has more dollars available, so they will in turn raise prices to get more of those newly-available dollars. Its called free-market, supply and demand, what-have-you.....

I am pretty sure the free market does not work like that.....

If you think that retailers wont raise their prices in response to a national minimum wage increase, well, you should reconsider that position

Simply because there is more money is changing hands, no I don't. You are saying retailers will increase profit margins just because people are making more money. Supply and Demand is not supply of money, it's supply of product. What exactly compels retailers to "raise prices to get more of those newly-available dollars"? Or more relevantly, what keeps them from not doing it? If you are saying cost will go up, so prices go up, then you may have a point, but that is not what you wrote. You were stating something completely different.

that is like saying with the recent economic downturn over the past 10 years that prices should have gone down....