Minimum Wage hike, you for it?

pres589 wrote: If Forbes is to be believed, and you know what a hive of liberal re-distribution-ist thinking Forbes is, the price of a Big Mac wouldn't go up at all if employees were paid $15/hr. http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/07/30/how-much-would-a-big-mac-cost-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-per-hour/

It's worth noting that's a Forbes "contributor" site, which is basically a Wordpress blog under the Forbes domain name.

Now to those saying things like "why should the MW workers get a raise and not me"...doesn't that sound like "wealth envy?" But it would be envy of someone who makes much less than you and was getting screwed.

So far one of the things that's been driven home to me in this thread is that 4cylinderfury has had a pretty sweet rags-to-riches career path. That's great, but many other people who work just as hard don't get through. You have to let that sink in somehow. Not all work environments are like those you encountered.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: Lifes not fair.

There's a big difference between fair and giving people in the wealthiest nation at least a chance of a reasonable life. It's also about allowing people to stand on their own feet rather than being forced to rely on Government hand outs.

What is preventing them from bettering their situation on their own? What stands between them and the "chance of a reasonable life" ?Why must it be a matter of statute? No one is forcing them to do anything. People rarely plan to fail, they often fail to plan.

The fact that there aren't enough jobs out there allowing people like walmart to pay artificial low wages that force the cost of supporting people onto the rest of us. Pretty obvious really

Lancer007 wrote: Capitalism is basically Darwinism but with money.

That's an observation I agree with. So for the record, do you support social Darwinism?

Lancer007 wrote: The point I was trying to make is that working at MW job for more than a year you would almost have to go out of your way to not move up to a better paying position or at least develop some skills to get a better gig... Its a sad fact that a large portion of people living below the poverty line are there because they feel entitled to live beyond their means....

I don't know if you've been following what's been going on for the past few years, but there are simply too many overqualified people working low level jobs now, through no fault of their own. Because of this, it's also not as easy to just 'move up' from the bottom positions either anymore, without already being overqualified.

You appear to be arguing against increasing the minimum wage because of the people that for whatever reason (a discussion in of itself) choose not to work toward improving their life, but your arguments don't outwardly take into account all of the other people out there who work hard like your mother did. You probably don't think your mother deserved a less livable wage. Consider how your life might have turned out differently had your mother only been allowed to earn half of what she did for the same work while raising you? Because that's exactly what not raising the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living is doing to those people today.

There was a time in this country that most people farmed. Our government gave away land to make the dream of owning a farm possible. Just gave it away. The economy changed and there was a lot of unskilled manufacturing. Our government stepped in and unionization happened. A lot of people made a good living off of those non market wages. Now the economy is changing again. What was once farming and then factory work is the service sector. There's a chance that the government won't intervene, but I doubt it. There is already a clear divide between government jobs and private sector jobs.

Who actually earns minimum wage.

Yes, I am in favor. No, I do not agree with the proposed $15/hour figure.

I have heard the sentiment a lot on this board that people find it infuriating to not get a cost of living increase year to year. That it is the equivalent of being told that your work is actually worth less than it was the previous year. That is essentially what raising the minimum wage does. It gives a cost of living bump to the pay rates for the lowest income earners.

I do not see this leading to inflation. Inflation is constantly happening. This a response to inflation, not a primary cause.

Some people dont choose for themselves. That is a false statement. My dad didnt choose to become diabled. I didnt choose to get injured at work. Hell, some people dont choose to have kids.

It should be increased. But maybe only .25 at most.

Driven5 wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Sorry, but if I can do it, so can anyone.

How might your story have changed if your starting wages had been roughly half of what you were fortunate enough to be allowed to earn? Can you say with absolute certainty that you still would have had the desire and ability to go to a voc-tec to learn a trade that also paid half as much early on, ultimately still ending up exactly where you are now?

Nobody can say for certainty what they would have done, but im a hard worker. Hard worker rarely find themselves at the bottom of they pay scale for very long. Some people are driven to do kmore/better, others are not. Some are only willing to out xx effort but want xxxx dollars in return. I wanted xxxx dollars and found a way to make it happen. I've posted this many times before. The kids i went to schol with all had the same circumstances more or less. Somw are making quite a bit more than me, some will struggle to eek out an existance forever....or untill we mandate that thy get paid more for the only job they FEEL like doing.

It is interesting to note that Trump Plaza here in atlantic city just forced a serious pay decrease on their stage hands. 5 years ago they were making 36/hr. 4 years ago they took a decrease to 26/hr.. this year... 15/hr.

This is for a highly skilled technical job. They were non-union before the last drop in pay, needless to say they have unionized and are just trying to get Plaza to the table to negotiate a contract

Jaxmadine wrote: Some people dont choose for themselves. That is a false statement. My dad didnt choose to become diabled. I didnt choose to get injured at work. Hell, some people dont choose to have kids. It should be increased. But maybe only .25 at most.

Did your employer not have worker's comp? Did you choose not to pay for CHEAP disability insurance and instead buy a computer, smartphone, monthly internet service? Sorry you got hurt. You could've CHOSEN to have a "safety net" in place. Ever heard of SSI/Disability?

Everyone CHOOSES whether or not to have kids. If you stick your dick in a chick with no protection, "kid" is a likely outcome. They don't just magically show up on your berkeleying doorstep.

I did have a safety net and wc. You would be surprised as to how fast that money goes away. Then theres the years of learning to live with said injiry and readjusting.

Im just trying to say that sometimes your choices are limited, and in the end you might get berkeleyed no matter what.

Hind sight is 2020 and all.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: Lifes not fair.

There's a big difference between fair and giving people in the wealthiest nation at least a chance of a reasonable life. It's also about allowing people to stand on their own feet rather than being forced to rely on Government hand outs.

What is preventing them from bettering their situation on their own? What stands between them and the "chance of a reasonable life" ?Why must it be a matter of statute? No one is forcing them to do anything. People rarely plan to fail, they often fail to plan.

The fact that there aren't enough jobs out there allowing people like walmart to pay artificial low wages that force the cost of supporting people onto the rest of us. Pretty obvious really

Don't know what its like there, but there's lots of jobs around me. Indeed.com, monster, career builder, Craigslist, linkedin, just takes some effort and diligence...rare commodities these days it seems...

I told my daughter the economic facts of life, to wit: you won't start out in the boardroom, as you gain experience and skills you will be worth more on the job market thus make more money BUT you must produce more to make it worthwhile to your employer.

There needs to be a place to start and those are minimum wage jobs. They are not meant to be careers. They are meant to be just what they are: low skill low pay jobs.

To basically double the minimum wage will remove a huge percentage of these entry level jobs from the market thus removing opportunities for kids like her. She doesn't make a helluva lot, basically enough to save for her car insurance and put gas in it once a week but it's teaching her how to handle money and budget, skills which will serve her well later in life.

I am not in favor of doing away with the minimum wage, though. Letting the market set the low end wages will not end well, in the normal race to maximize profits the focus will be on cutting costs not increasing prices and that's not good for the economy as a whole.

There are a few on here that get it. They won't be poor, no matter how much money they make. There are a few that don't, and can't stand someone being better than they are. They got a few too many participation awards when they were kids. They wouldn't be happy as millionaires. Someone would always have something or do something they didn't like. They will always cry out for more laws and more limits on freedom.

Life is a game, money is just one of the ways we keep score. Some people are better at the money part than others. Quite a few are better at it than I am. There are people who will bust their butts all their lives and die broke. There are people that will screw around all their lives and make fortunes.

Raise the MW, the poor will still be poor. The worthless will still be worthless and the rich will still be rich. Those that work hard will usually get ahead, those that coast through life waiting for the next gimme, will continue to do so. The problem is how they view life and themselves, not how much money is in their wallets. Some people just suck at life. Enabling them won't help them, they will still suck at it.

Poverty should be uncomfortable. The more uncomfortable, the better. If they stay miserable, they won't stay there long.

Edit because it posted before I was done.

I've raised a family of 6 on $6.50 an hour before. Granted that was 15-16 years ago. It sucked and it didn't last long. It took a couple of years to get past that. In that time I found out just how bad poverty sucks. I decided to change that. So I did.

Edit again. If I can change my situation in the poor south without even a HS Diploma then anyone can. They just have to want it bad enough and be willing to work for it. If you are over the age of 20 and working for minimum wage without a plan to move up the pay scale, I feel for you. You need to look at yourself to find the problems with your life. Nothing the government can do will make you succeed.

I do not think anyone on this board is in favor of bumping the minimum wage up to $15/hour. But what about a bump to somewhere in the $8-$10 range? That would keep up with or maybe edge up just a bit above inflation.

You can ascribe whatever reasoning for people getting stuck working minimum wage jobs. Separate debate. People are going to get stuck in those jobs. I do not see the need or point to making them suffer arbitrarily. You will not teach any stronger of a lesson paying someone $7.25/hour instead of $8.25. It would help them, and wouldn't really hurt much of anyone.

My thoughts are that it should be set at a value at some date in time and then be indexed against the median wage. If the Median wage is stagnant minimum wage is stagnant, if the Median wage rises by 5% it should rise by 5%. I think it is more appropriate to index to Median wage for the concerns most here are pointing out. If the "rest of us" are on average not getting income adjustments sufficient to keep up with inflation why should the floor? If the rest of us on average are increasing our earning then the Floor should raise a similar amount.

I do not think it's unreasonable for that value to be a minimum of ~110% of federal poverty level for a family size of 2 (15,510 x 1.1 = 17061 or 8.20/hr). I personaly would support a value a little higher than that provided the number being selected is justified in some way. The 10.10 amount (21K/yr Full time) being pushed by Obama right now seems a little high for a Floor but I've not fully researched the justification for that value.

Toyman01 wrote: Raise the MW, the poor will still be poor.

Well that settles it then. We should just abolish the minimum wage, since $1/hr apparently leads to exactly the same outcomes as $10/hr. I'm sure things would have worked out just as well for you if the concept of a minimum wage had never existed.

Driven5 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Raise the MW, the poor will still be poor.

... I'm sure things would have worked out just as well for you if the concept of a minimum wage had never existed.

Actually, it would. I don't have a defeatist mentality like many seem to.

Who would have guessed this thread would have turned into a E36 M3 fest?

GameboyRMH wrote:

Lancer007 wrote: Capitalism is basically Darwinism but with money.

That's an observation I agree with. So for the record, do you support social Darwinism?

Yes.

I was listening to the radio yesterday. A caller was trying to tell the host that the CEO of McDonalds was no smarter than the guy making fries at his local store. The caller was also pretty certain that the guy making fries was working harder because all the CEO had to do was "sign papers all day." I believe this mentality is pretty common among people working these types of jobs. An awful lot of people seem to think a big silver spoon comes down from the sky and picks winners and losers.

I believe that some people will always work hard to be successful and some will always work hard to make excuses.

93EXCivic wrote: Who would have guessed this thread would have turned into a E36 M3 fest?

Not me!

Driven5 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Raise the MW, the poor will still be poor.

Well that settles it then. We should just abolish the minimum wage, since $1/hr apparently leads to exactly the same outcomes as $10/hr. I'm sure things would have worked out just as well for you if the concept of a minimum wage had never existed.

lolol...I love it when I read this kind of rebuttal:

Oh, you voted against the school levy? Obviously you hate your country. I bet you drown children in their sleep for fun, dont you?!?

The real minimum wage is zero.

A lot of minimum wage jobs are franchises, which are small businesses tied to a large corporation. The burden of supporting raised minimum wages fall on the small business side, while the large corporation continues to reap the benefit of the sales.

Example: Midas took 10% of gross sales. Doesn't matter how successful the small business is at making money, only how successful the small business is at moving it around.

If you overburden your small business owner, they will leave and take their jobs with them. To be replaced by another small business owner trying to fill a similar franchise gap.

This is a generalization - not the rule.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Driven5 wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: Raise the MW, the poor will still be poor.

Well that settles it then. We should just abolish the minimum wage, since $1/hr apparently leads to exactly the same outcomes as $10/hr. I'm sure things would have worked out just as well for you if the concept of a minimum wage had never existed.

lolol...I love it when I read this kind of rebuttal:

Oh, you voted against the school levy? Obviously you hate your country. I bet you drown children in their sleep for fun, dont you?!?

It's the sign of the uneducated and the emotional. We're evil evil people because we want people to still have to work for things in life. SHAME on us.