Modern I/O boats...

I know there are some powerboat guys on here, so I'm throwing out a discussion topic. I know we've covered this some before, but I'm daydreaming about the return of warm weather and getting back on the water, so....

I've owned exactly one powerboat, my current 1973 Chaparral 15' with an old V4 'Rude. Great little boat...but little. We keep talking about going larger so we are more comfortable hanging out on the water and cruising with a few friends.  No skiing but I wouldn't rule out tubing in the future. Lots of swimming and picnic-ing.

Most of the time we spend on small-med inland lakes, but several times a year we are down on the coast running in backwater tidal marsh creeks where depth is highly variable and always changing. We like exploring and sandbar-ing down there and I have yet to stick the little 15 but I have put the prop in the mud more than once. My alarm doesn't even go off until it's under 3' deep now.

In looking at new boats in the 20-25' range there are a lot of options with I/O setups, something I've shied away from because of our shallow water use and the fact they seem more problem prone. The boat would only be in saltwater for 10-15 days a year, and generally stored on the trailer, so the issues with saltwater mooring and raising the drive never bothered me. It was more the idea of crawling around the creeks and not being able to lift the motor out and pole out of a shallow spot, although I know moving up in boat size will limit that no matter what. I'm looking at spending a fair amount on a boat, enough that well cared for boats from about 10 years ago are in the mix.

So my discussion is - are fairly late model I/O drives worth considering for my usage pattern? Are they more reliable than the stuff from back in the 80s and 90s that I've heard horror stories about? Convince me I SHOULD consider an I/O, or convince me I should NOT.

Last I/O I had was an '88and overall it was reliable and not overly expensive to maintain. It was used regularly for saltwater fishing, moored for a season and trailered for many more.

Modern jet drives might be another thing to consider.  My father is going to be selling his 2009 (I might be off on the year) Yamaha SX210 with low hours. He had the interior upholstered recently. It's located in Bradenton  

Not an I/O, but seems like it would be well  suited for what you're planning. 

Done outboards. Done I/O. I wouldn't write I/O's off entirely for my future, but I would put money on only ever owning an outboard again. 

I don't think that I/O's are any more problematic than an outboard, BUT when you work on an outboard you are standing up and everything is right in front of you. Working on an I/O, you have to contort yourself and take an asprin. 

Also, we ran my FIL's 22' Rinker Captiva (like this one) in about 2 feet of water. The outdrives still will trim up pretty far - for a lot of these boats, the draft is pretty shallow so it isn't all that different from an outboard. 

Ultimately, I'd probably spend more money on an outboard than an I/O and be happy to do it - especially if it has a Yamahammer on the back - but I wouldn't rule an I/O completely out. 

Funny timing. I had a dream last night that I was at a boat show, and the Yamaha area had a bunch of gigantic (like 30'+, and the widest boats I'd ever seen) speed boats with extremely weird engine setups. Like a speed boat with dual jet-drive outboards that were mounted in the middle of the passenger area, going through a whole in the floor, or one that had two jet-drive outboards surrounding a normal outboard. Wonder what that means. 

No Time said:

Not an I/O, but seems like it would be well  suited for what you're planning. 

You know, I've looked at some of the Yamaha jet boats breifly. What was your experience with low speed steerign control? And did you ever have issues sucking in gras or weeds and clogging the drives?

ultraclyde said:

No Time said:

Not an I/O, but seems like it would be well  suited for what you're planning. 

You know, I've looked at some of the Yamaha jet boats breifly. What was your experience with low speed steerign control? And did you ever have issues sucking in gras or weeds and clogging the drives?

If you haven't yet, watch the Grand Tour Seamen episode. 

If I personally were getting a jet drive, I'd want it to be small or else have a kicker on it. 

In reply to mtn :

Yeah, I have. I think the jets are probably not my thing.

I know you asked about I/O’s, but just be aware almost everything new is going outboard.  I saw 35’+ formulas with four outboards on the back in lieu of the traditional twin sbc/bbc/diesel i/o setup.  I believe it was for ease of service (kill one, unbolt it and pop another on), rather than cost, but I am not sure.  

It definitely kills the lines on the performance cruisers :p

As far as the shallow water and I/Os, the engine will trim up above the bottom of the keel so if the hull isn't on the bottom, neither is the outdrive. The boats are going to be pretty heavy though, you don't want to pole it far and if it's hard on the bottom it's probably going to stay there until the tide comes in. Off the top of my head the outdrive alone is 1100-1200 pounds. My 20' I/O was 3400 pounds dry. Note: They do not like to run trimmed that high. it's hard on the U-joints. 

They are more maintenance intensive than a 2 cycle outboard by a long shot. Oil changes can be a challenge when the engine is buried in the bottom of the hull. Buy a vacuum pump so you can suck it out of the dipstick. Oil filters are particularly fun. I relocated mine to the transom beside the engine which helped a lot. 

Salt water destroys the cast iron manifolds and risers. The combination of heat and salt eats them. If they fail, they usually take out the engine as well. For a saltwater boat, exhaust parts are considered consumables. Risers every 2 years, manifolds changed every 5 or at least pressure tested. In fresh water they will last forever. In your situation, I'd keep an eye on them but probably not change them. Mine had a fresh water cooling kit on it. I still had to buy risers every two years.

All the water in the ocean is kept at bay by a rubber driveshaft bellows and a shift cable boot. They are a service item and should be changed every 4-5 years. They are a pain in the ass to change. If you do not change them and they fail, the boat will sink at the dock unless the bilge pump can keep up. 

Water pumps on them should be replaced every year. The drive also needs to be pulled to grease the U-joints. The carrier bearing also needs grease regularly. None of these are hard or expensive jobs. 

Galvanic corrosion will eat them very quickly. Much faster than an outboard due to the aluminum used. Doubly true when left overboard in saltwater. Make sure whatever you by has a good bonding system in place or add one yourself. Keep the zincs clean and changed. 

I/Os burn a lot of gas. My last boat carried 55 gallons of fuel. It would burn that in a day. Every day. Start towing skis or  tubes and you might need to stop and top it off before the end of the day. It was 260hp and at full song it burned 21 gallons an hour. It would also run 55 mph, which is quite fun on the water. 

Other than those not necessarily minor items, I actually prefer them over outboards. They are quieter and smoother at all speeds. They cruise at 2000 RPMs instead of 4500, so the noise quality is better. They usually ride better just due to the weight of the boat. 

You will be tempted by Volvo. Don't do it. Their parts are 3 times the cost of MerCruiser. Stay away from OMC as well. They are no longer made. Also stay away from Yamaha I/Os. They are no longer made and parts are insane assuming you can find them. At the end of the day, all of them use Ford or Chevy engines and the maintenance on them is the same. Get the MerCruiser, take care of it, it will last a long time. 

In reply to Flynlow :

Yeah, and I actually prefer outboards, but I'm not buying new. Most of what I've been droolign over are things like Scout Dorado 210, Pioneer Venture 197, Key West 203DFS - dual consoles with a little more saltwater heritage and 150-200HP outboards. There's plenty of those around, but the deckboats like the Chaparral Sunesta 236/244/224 etc make a good case for how we actually use a boat. But they also are just now moving to outboard power, and I'm not up for $70k on a boat. Plus I'm inland, so lake boats are much easier to actually lay hands on without making a weekend trip.

There's always the chance I might go for a cheap deal on an olde Proline, SeaHunt, Grady White DC that left some money in the pot too. This is all speculation at the moment.

I've owned dozens of each.  With either one, if you purchase a quality unit and do repairs yourself, they are no more expensive than a Camry.  I find I/Os to be dirt cheap and bulletproof.  I mean, they are probably either a 3.0L Buick, a 4.3L GM V6, or a small block chevy.  Aside from extremely minor differences, they are car engines that have been in use since the 50s and parts are cheap.

I think the people who say "a hole in the water you throw money into" are the ones who take their boats to a marina for spark plug changes.

The lake where I do most of my boating is a canadian lake with some wide open deep stuff and a lot of shallow rocks and mud.  The only issue I have with my I/O is that you can't ever trim it fully out.  No matter how much you trim, the deeper vee, heavier weight, and smaller articulation means that it is always in the water.  My current I/O is a Mercruiser Alpha with a 3.0L which is one of the lightest setups, and fully trimmed out there is still 11" of boat in the water and another 5" of lower unit.  I also have an outboard that I can use for shallow excursions, so it's not a big deal.  My frustration is when I pull up for a shore lunch, every wake that moves the boat means the lower unit is stabbing into the sand/mud/potential rocks below it.  I have to carefully pick my landings so that doesn't happen.  With an outboard, no worries.

When you mention sandbar, inland waters, etc, I might shy away from I/O.  First, they're heavier, so they draft more.  Second, flying along at 30 mph and you hit a sandbar, you can't just trim the skeg out and float off.  If the glass is touching sand, that means the skeg will be 5" in even when it's trimmed out.

An outboard represents slightly more expensive parts in some cases, but ultimately serviceable, high power/weight ratio, and it can trim out completely.  If you can afford the slightly higher buy-in, I would go outboard.

Having said that, you have to be careful with what outboard you get.  Top marks go to Yamaha and Suzuki.  There were some really dark years in there.  After Mercury bought Force, they took a big image hit since Force sucked, and they had to retool many things and they finally scrapped all of the old Force tooling.  They are coming around beautifully.  As far as I'm concerned, the last thing OMC did worth anything were the E-tec motors after the Bombardier merger.  The E-tecs are wonderful units, but unfortunately everyone knows it and that puts a significant tax on them.

If I were in the market for a new outboard, I wouldn't consider anything other than a Yamaha or possibly a Suzuki, however the writing on the walls suggests that Suzuki is pulling out of North America entirely.  Future parts availability may become an issue.

If I were in the market for a used outboard, I would strongly consider a used M-series Merc/Mariner from the late 80s/mid90s.  I have an M70 that the family bought new in 88.  To say that we have abused it is an understatement.  Three months out of the year it spends time in salt and fresh, and gets used HARD at least three times a day during those three months; morning fishing trips of incessant idling while trolling, daily excursions that often include hours of waterskiing, evening fishing trips with more trolling.  When it started losing compression from a failed oil injection pump, I cut the wires to the alarm and mixed my own fuel and used it two more years.  We finally ended up rebuilding the power head and it is still going strong.  Aside from pulling the lower unit once for a water pump (not because it needed it, just figured I'd do it before it needed it) the lower unit has never been opened. I wish we had put an hour meter on it.  Had we known it was that bulletproof, we'd sell it to a museum.

I would also consider a pre-Bombardier OMC outboard, but they're getting pretty long in the tooth.

By the way, here's some shots of the marsh creeks, just for the hell of it...

Flynlow said:

I know you asked about I/O’s, but just be aware almost everything new is going outboard.  I saw 35’+ formulas with four outboards on the back in lieu of the traditional twin sbc/bbc/diesel i/o setup.  I believe it was for ease of service (kill one, unbolt it and pop another on), rather than cost, but I am not sure.  

It definitely kills the lines on the performance cruisers :p

The change to outboards is all about speed. A 50' sportfisher will run 20-30 knots with twin 300 hp diesels. A 50 CC with 4-400hp outboards will run 50+. That puts you on the fish in half the time and lets you stay out longer. 

I/Os are about money. A 260hp MerCruiser package will set you back $17k. A 250hp Yamaha will set you back $24k. 

OH... one other thing.  I/O in your size range means that a significant portion of the boat will be occupied with an engine.  It can be a thing of diminishing returns... you need more boat to get the same space as a comparable outboard... which needs more motor... which takes up more space.

I do love the simplicity of my I/O (mine is carbed) but don't like the space loss and the deep draft.

My maintenance consists of running the carb dry, emptying the water from the jackets (I installed two draincocks, one in the block and one in the manifold) and putting it in the garage.  Every year I run it in the spring to make sure nothing happened, but every year it fires up and runs like a champ.  I'll probably do spark plugs this spring ($1.99 each x 4 and 10 minutes).  They are really dirt simple.  IF you do the work yourself.  New bellows at a marina is $150 in parts and $1000 in labor.  Resealing a lower unit is $500 at a marina, or $20 and an afternoon in your garage.

In reply to Curtis73 :

I was hoping you'd chime in...

That's really reinforcing what I've thought about the I/O stuff as far as use goes. But good to know they aren't the timebombs I've always imagined. Most of the stuff I'm looking at woulf be 5L+ V-8 with dual prop lowers - volvo or Bravo 3.

I've heard good things about the late-late model Mercs too. Honestly, I'm kind of keeping an eye out for an older salty dual console with a blown motor I could pick up cheap and repower with a new Merc 150 or 175.

Seems like around 2010 era, Yamaha 150 was the go to motor, which suits me fine.

Curtis73 said:

OH... one other thing.  I/O in your size range means that a significant portion of the boat will be occupied with an engine.  It can be a thing of diminishing returns... you need more boat to get the same space as a comparable outboard... which needs more motor... which takes up more space.

I do love the simplicity of my I/O (mine is carbed) but don't like the space loss and the deep draft.

That's actually one of the things I see wrong with the newest outboard boats in the bow rider class. Most of them slapped an outboard on the back and left the damn engine box. They are $60k, 20 foot boats witht he same seating space as my 15' boat. What the hell? 

In reply to Curtis73 :

Interesting to hear your I/Os won't trim above the keel. All of my MerCruisers have at least trimmed at least that high and I never had a problem of the drive hitting the beach before the hull did. 

Toyman01 said:

Flynlow said:

I know you asked about I/O’s, but just be aware almost everything new is going outboard.  I saw 35’+ formulas with four outboards on the back in lieu of the traditional twin sbc/bbc/diesel i/o setup.  I believe it was for ease of service (kill one, unbolt it and pop another on), rather than cost, but I am not sure.  

It definitely kills the lines on the performance cruisers :p

The change to outboards is all about speed. A 50' sportfisher will run 20-30 knots with twin 300 hp diesels. A 50 CC with 4-400hp outboards will run 50+. That puts you on the fish in half the time and lets you stay out longer. 

I/Os are about money. A 260hp MerCruiser package will set you back $17k. A 250hp Yamaha will set you back $24k. 

That i get, but something like this doesn’t do much fishing:

How new are you looking?

My 19' Baja was a basket case that I bought with a nice trailer for $1100.  It had a locked up 305 which I swapped out for a home-built Vortec 350 with a Qjet making 300 hp.  I replaced some floor stringers and resealed the outdrive.  60+ mph for a total investment of $3500.

My current Ebbtide 18 has a 3.0L that I bought for $3500 with an aluminum trailer.  I replaced two seats for $100 and a bellows kit for $150 and turned the key for the last three years.

Boats are expensive if someone else does the work.  If you do your own (it ain't voodoo) they are remarkably cheap toys.

I seriously considered a 17' Alumacraft last year that was used very little.  It had a 115 Merc on it and I could have had it for $6000.

Used in my opinion is definitely the way to go.  There are so many boats out there that someone bought new, depreciation took its toll, then they whacked the lower unit on a rock and the marina said $2000 to fix it.  I like to scoop those up along with an ebay lower unit and get a cheap boat.

In reply to Flynlow :

true, but 1600 horsepower hanging on the transom is pretty sexy. Add in to that all the gps station keeping and joystick control possible with multiple outboards (that inboards can't do) and it's a solid proposition.

I don't think I've ever seen one that trimmed up above the keel, but most of mine have been volvo or mercruiser.  (these aren't mine, just examples)

In reply to Curtis73 :

All of my rigs had deeper Vs than those do. 

In reply to Curtis73 :

It depends? I don't mind older boats and doing the work, but I don't really want something I need to dig into stringers/deck/transom on. On the Other hand, there have been a lot of improvements in, say, the last 15 years in adding storage and making the layouts more functional at a hull-design level that you just can't get in even the 90s boats. Plus around 2000-2005 most of the companies moved toward wood-free construction which is a huge plus.

I ran up on a 1998 Chaparral 198F with a 115HP Johnson for cheap recently. Floors and stringers were done, boat ran fine. It fit the bill on size and price, but layout wasn't much better than my 15, and the missus wasn't impressed. I was thinking I could outfit it nicely, redo the entire interior, and hang a lightly used 175 on the back and have a great boat!

In reply to ultraclyde :

I'm half-seriously looking for a boat like yours. Outboard, small, front seating, Bimini top. Got a trailer? 

ultraclyde said:

In reply to Flynlow :

true, but 1600 horsepower hanging on the transom is pretty sexy. Add in to that all the gps station keeping and joystick control possible with multiple outboards (that inboards can't do) and it's a solid proposition.

 

The station keeping and joystick controls on new boats are nothing short of witchcraft.  I agree with you 100% there!!!

The 1600hp to raise the top speed from 40 to 50 knots I am kind of ambivalent about.  Your fuel burn quadruples, and 50 kts in any kind of chop is miserable.   Though I’m biased.  Friends propped down their fleming 55 with twin 3208 cats and I thought the dealer was going to have a heart attack.  They lost 2 kts on the top end and doubled their cruising mpg at 7-8kts (gph?  Wouldnt doubling that be worse? :p ).  Several years in, and they have saved $10000+ in diesel, and never missed the top speed.