If the Japanese wanted to build a cultural center in Pearl Harbor.
If the Germans wanted to make a Nazi memorial at Auschwitz....
Discuss politely.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/202370.php
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/06/2010-05-06_plan_for_mosque_near_world_trade_center_site_moves_ahead.html
http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/12/mosque-at-the-world-trade-center-muslim-renewal-or-insult-near-ground-zero.php
Well... at least this time it will be our own homegrown terrorists that blow it up.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, founder of the Cordoba Initiative
Maybe the mosque will have rich Corinthian leather?
914Driver wrote: Discuss politely.
Good one.
Mosque? Isn't that the stuff you flavor bar-b-que with?
Isn't it that stuff that's supposed work kind of like an aphrodisiac, mosque oil?
zomby woof wrote: Isn't it that stuff that's supposed work kind of like an aphrodisiac, mosque oil?
No, you're thinking of Herbie Mann's album Push-Push.
scanning the article, its a couple of blocks away from ground zero. maybe not a wise idea to build it, even there, but preventing it from being built, would conflict with the very idealism that the US and more pointedly NY , has part of its foundation based upon, freedom of religion.
Listening to a radio talk show yesterday they interviewed a woman whose name and background I didn't hear because I came in after the introductions, and a Muslim cleric who is defending the building of the Mosque as a cultural education center.
The woman cited incident after incident of Terrorists using a Mosque to hide or train in, quoted specifics in the Koran where it is OK to lie about your true intent because you are promoting the Word.
The Mosque defender was difficult to understand but was pretty much "Can't we all just get along" patter. At the end the woman was still polite and laying out her case logically while the Cleric was flustered and getting angry.
It was a Conservative venue, perhaps a Liberal talk show would have different guests and able to sway the listener in a different direction.
Dan
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Well... at least this time it will be our own homegrown terrorists that blow it up.
LOL.
claiming all muslims are terrorists is like saying all americans are fat pizza eating slobs. while the rest of the world sees us that way, it's just not true.
mmmmmmmmmm,. pizza.
patgizz wrote: claiming all muslims are terrorists is like saying all americans are fat pizza eating slobs. while the rest of the world sees us that way, it's just not true.
Of course it isn't... but you can explain that to the general population of this country who still mostly believe there is a magic man in the sky controlling the destiny of everyone and how putting the temple of the "other" people's magic man in the sky on the graves of the people they believe they killed as a whole.... is really OK... They will effing moider you.
(never mind its not really at ground zero but somewhere in lower Manhattan "near-by")
924guy wrote: scanning the article, its a couple of blocks away from ground zero. maybe not a wise idea to build it, even there, but preventing it from being built, would conflict with the very idealism that the US and more pointedly NY , has part of its foundation based upon, freedom of religion.
/\ Sums it up pretty well. /.
Joey
It's a couple of blocks away, so who cares?
I don't get the outrage either, other than from the ignorant "all Muslims are terrorists" aspect. What better place to have Muslims learn about the "good" form of Muslim(ism?) and be very aware of the "bad" form.
It seems like a great idea even from a all Muslims are terrorists aspect anyway. I don't know, but I suspect there is a general rule about the terrorist NOT blowing up their own Mosques. Maybe we should have them build Mosques at all major potential target areas!
And yes, the World Trade Center area is rather large, so it's not like it will be sitting next to a memorial.
The "putting a Nazi memorial at Auschwitz...." doesn't seem even close to equivalent. A more appropriate equivalency would be some sort of German political and national education center (near it of course, not IN it). Which would be a VERY good place, what better way to remind the students how nationalism can go so very wrong. I believe they still have a problem with Nazi activists there (probably just anarchist types really), so it is still very relevant.
If the Japanese don't mind a MickyD's a couple of bocks from their Ground Zero(s), who are we to talk?
Home of the free. They should be able to build with the same amount of expense and hassles that any other group or person would face - no more, no less.
Can't let knocking down a couple of buildings change the values of who we are as a nation. Criminals should pay, but the people should not pay the expense of what we claim are natural born rights even when it means protecting the unpopular. What's the saying...democracy is 2 wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep, contesting the vote.
Yes, a lot of people died there, in perspective, more people drowned that year, more were killed in pedestrian accidents, more died from firearm accidents, 3 times as many died from falling.
In defense of the idea, NYC does have approximately four times as many Muslims per capita as the national average.
Having said that, the number still only comes to slightly more than two percent while the property value in Manhattan is wildly, wildly greater than four times the national average which represents the limit of being able to justify the decision economically.
In other words, even if a square foot in Manhattan only costs twelve times as much as the national average (a very conservatively estimate), the cost per individual served would still be three times greater than what would be expected by chance.
I don’t know what the true objective of this is but I’m sure not buying the "gee, there’s nothing to it, we just thought it’d be nice" story.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: ...general population of this country who still mostly believe there is a magic man in the sky controlling the destiny of everyone and how putting the temple of the "other" people's magic man in the sky ...
It's the same magic man, It is just a matter of do you follow prophet #1, 2, or 3
RX Reven' wrote: In defense of the idea, NYC does have approximately four times as many Muslims per capita as the national average. Demographic Reference Having said that, the number still only comes to slightly more than two percent while the property value in Manhattan is wildly, wildly greater than four times the national average which represents the limit of being able to justify the decision economically. In other words, even if a square foot in Manhattan only costs twelve times as much as the national average (a very conservatively estimate), the cost per individual served would still be three times greater than what would be expected by chance. I don’t know what the true objective of this is but I’m sure not buying the "gee, there’s nothing to it, we just thought it’d be nice" story.
Let me try to follow this - A lot of Muslims live there, but the property values are high, so they should build their mosque somewhere else, where values are lower, instead of where they live? How does that make any sense?
IMO, anyone who has a problem with this proposal has a problem with the basic founding principles of this country.
I keep hearing how we big ugly stupid Americans should be mindful of the feelings of others and that not doing so is the root of the terrorist attacks.
But if a Muslim wants to build a mosque so close to the site of the largest Muslim terrorist attack on US soil ever, then he does not need to be mindful of our feelings?
Maybe I am just showing my big stupid Americanism but I don't like the double standard.
I would love to be worked up over this, really, but in nine years noone has managed to build anything on the site due to all the bickering of politicians and other groups. If they felt they could get something built good for them. As the stories point out the actual site is a couple blocks away and as crowded as downtown is it would be more like building a Japanese cultural center in Maui. My biggest problem is that they are calling it a Mosque and it does not have the onion things on the top. It looks like it is more the Muslim equivlent of a YMCA/YMJA.
neon4891 wrote:Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: ...general population of this country who still mostly believe there is a magic man in the sky controlling the destiny of everyone and how putting the temple of the "other" people's magic man in the sky ...It's the same magic man, It is just a matter of do you follow prophet #1, 2, or 3
I think you missed his point.
Jensenman wrote: I keep hearing how we big ugly stupid Americans should be mindful of the feelings of others and that not doing so is the root of the terrorist attacks. But if a Muslim wants to build a mosque so close to the site of the largest Muslim terrorist attack on US soil ever, then he does not need to be mindful of our feelings? Maybe I am just showing my big stupid Americanism but I don't like the double standard.
It is not really a double standard...
In the first case we are asked to be mindful of the very real fact that Muslims are not terrorists, terrorists are Muslims.
In the second case you are asking them to be mindful of our ignorant and irrational hatred and bigotry.
Statistically most serial killers are white. I am white, but am not a serial killer... and I expect people to recognize and respect that fact that just because there is an issue with a subset of my larger group, my larger group is not responsible for the actions of that small subset.
Whats the difference between saying that the Muslims should be mindful of our ignorant views, and keep away from where we don't want them... And a member of the KKK saying they blacks should be mindful of the fact that he does not want them there, and they should go back to Africa? Sure the second case is a little more extreme, but should we really expect an innocent group to limit their own freedoms in order to respect our ignorance?
In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:
How can I explain to you that all religious people don't hold this perspective? Just because some of the dumbest people are loudest doesn't mean they speak for all of us.
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