Mosque to be built at Ground Zero.

Wally wrote: While I can stand on a box on a corner and point out every act of terrorism is done by someone with a funny head dress, the practical side of me lives with this every day. There are probably as many mosques in Mannhattan as there are Catholic churches right now, and since the economy has turned they are out in the streets handing out food and supplies to those who need it just like the churches are and have done in past depressions. I have to welcome anyone that wants to come in and do right by people even if I still think that my God is better than their's.

if there's one person in NYC who i'd expect to know where the free food is...

RedS13Coupe wrote: terrorists are Muslims.

They are also Christian, Jewish, Hindu, [insert favorite religion].

Every religion has fanatics, every culture has fanatics. The problem is mass media likes to portray people in whatever color they choose.

Academia has taught me one thing, its how to work and interact with people of every race/religion/etc without prejudice. The lab I work in has a Christian Columbian, a couple of Chinese, an Indian Muslim, a Christian American and an atheistic Indian. We work together, eat lunch, joke around and at the end of the day our races, cultures, religion or lack thereof doesn't affect our personal interactions. I don't try to convert them to not believing in god or religion, they don't try to convert me to their beliefs.

Look at the world and the people for who they are based on their actions, not on anything else. In the three years that I taught most of my worst students were Caucasian males or females, does that make all Caucasians idiots? No, and if I went with that viewpoint I'd be asked to leave. Similarly, among all the countries I've lived in this one has the largest percentage of school violence. Does that make all American highschoolers homicidal maniacs? No, and that viewpoint again wouldn't be a ridiculous one.

I don't deny that there are wackos in every walk of life. There's plenty of (insert your favorite group here) who do terrible things, sometimes with the alleged backing of their group. As Wally said, there are also many of every stripe doing good things as well.

So let me pose this question: if the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood decided to open a branch office in Harlem (or any other majority black 'hood) would this message board group support it? Even if they had the dollars to do so and 'the dollar rules all'? And no I am not saying Muslims and KKK members are the same type of person, if anyone here says that it came from their warped mind not mine. I am posing a hypothetical.

I will say this: if you say it's OK to put a mosque 2 blocks from the most terrible deed ever done by Muslim extremists and you say it's not OK for white power extremists to do the same in Harlem, you have just reinforced the double standard. Once that double standard is gone then maybe we can all start truly getting along.

Here's a hypothetical for you - how about if a Tea Party group has plans to open up a center that happened to be near the site of the Murrah Federal Building? Would you have a problem with that?

Jensenman wrote: So let me pose this question: if the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood decided to open a branch office in Harlem (or any other majority black 'hood) would this message board group support it? Even if they had the dollars to do so and 'the dollar rules all'? And no I am not saying Muslims and KKK members are the same type of person, if anyone here says that it came from their warped mind not mine. I am posing a hypothetical.

You say that you do not consider Muslims and the KKK the same type of person, but the wording definitely suggests otherwise. So, let me answer your hypothetical question with another question: Would you prefer a mosque or a KKK headquarters in your backyard?

Why do I have to choose either?

Mosque. I hate Illinois Nazis. And I've met some cool Muslims.

Jensenman wrote: So let me pose this question: if the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood decided to open a branch office in Harlem (or any other majority black 'hood) would this message board group support it? Even if they had the dollars to do so and 'the dollar rules all'? And no I am not saying Muslims and KKK members are the same type of person, if anyone here says that it came from their warped mind not mine. I am posing a hypothetical.

Your asking the question completely opposite of the situation we are originally talking about. Muslems are not moving into a neighborhood full of people who they hate. They are moving into a neighborhood full of people who hate them.

Like you said, the group you dislike because of your false assumptions should be considerate of your feelings.

So.... Should a museum celebrating black history avoid moving in near KKK headquarter out of respect for the feelings of the klan members? Don't they owe the clan this respect if they want the clan to be respectful of their rights as Americans?

Josh wrote: Here's a hypothetical for you - how about if a Tea Party group has plans to open up a center that happened to be near the site of the Murrah Federal Building? Would you have a problem with that?

Lost me.

Josh wrote: Here's a hypothetical for you - how about if a Tea Party group has plans to open up a center that happened to be near the site of the Murrah Federal Building? Would you have a problem with that?

Tea Partiers had nothing to do with the Murrah bombing. That group came along many years after that incident (and except for some overheated rhetoric from journalists who should really know better, not from those who actually participate) have never advocated a violent overthrow of the US government.

So the hypothetical you pose has no validity.

RedS13Coupe wrote:

Jensenman wrote: So let me pose this question: if the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood decided to open a branch office in Harlem (or any other majority black 'hood) would this message board group support it? Even if they had the dollars to do so and 'the dollar rules all'? And no I am not saying Muslims and KKK members are the same type of person, if anyone here says that it came from their warped mind not mine. I am posing a hypothetical.

Your asking the question completely opposite of the situation we are originally talking about. Muslems are not moving into a neighborhood full of people who they hate. They are moving into a neighborhood full of people who hate them.

So blacks don't hate Klukkers? Then I suggest you drop a sheet over your head and go to the next NAACP meeting near you. Report back (if you can).

RedS13Coupe wrote: Like you said, the group you dislike because of your false assumptions should be considerate of your feelings.

Where did I ever say I disliked Muslims? Show me. I honestly have no problem with them (or any other group) as long as they act like they have some sense and don't discriminate against others.

Even though I grew up in the Durty Durty South surrounded by 'FERGIT, HELL!' merchandise and rebel flags and even though it is my right as an American to display any damn thing I want on my property, I would not hang a rebel flag out front of my house out of respect for the feelings of my black neighbors. I would like to think they feel the same way about displaying Black Panther flags.

RedS13Coupe wrote: So.... Should a museum celebrating black history avoid moving in near KKK headquarter out of respect for the feelings of the klan members? Don't they owe the clan this respect if they want the clan to be respectful of their rights as Americans?

Dayumn. You figured it out.

We all live in each other's hip pockets in this society. A small amount of consideration for the other guy (or gal) regardless of whether you agree with their position goes a long way toward us all, in the immortal words of Rodney King, 'just gettin' along'.

914Driver wrote:

Josh wrote: Here's a hypothetical for you - how about if a Tea Party group has plans to open up a center that happened to be near the site of the Murrah Federal Building? Would you have a problem with that?

Lost me.

Read up on some of the things McVeigh said or wrote before and after the bombing. A lot of it would fit in with the rhetoric currently adopted by the tea party movement - Anti-taxation, anti-big-government, etc. He was a dangerous extremist within that basic philosophy (which is not a strike against the tea partiers - dangerous extremists tend to exist within any strongly held belief). So would it be a similar outrage if a group of people that may share some beliefs with the terrorist responsible for that event decided to build something in Oklahoma City? Nevermind for a moment that the concept of a "tea party cultural center" is something I probably made up, while mosques are things that have existed for thousands of years and are common in any place that Muslims inhabit.

The point is, I think you would be correct not to care about my hypothetical scenario. I think it would be foolish to ascribe the actions of a violent extremist criminal to all who share some of his beliefs, just as it is foolish ascribe the actions of some violent extremist criminals to all Muslims.

I mighta picked a different opening day, traffic down there is gonna be a mess

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34EB0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL

...The opening date shall live in infamy: Sept. 11, 2011....

Opening on Sept 11 indicates a little less desire to just be a peaceful place of worship with no US hate. On the other hand choosing that date will probably help them get that huge amount of cash they need to raise to build just another 13 story worship center.

AngryCorvair wrote: i want the most valuable piece of real estate i can find, but there's already a couple of big-ass buildings on it. what to do, what to do....

angry made a funnay.

And having just heard about the whole "Hey, we're having our grand opening on the tenth anniversary of the big terrorist attacks on the U.S.," please allow me to recant my earlier devil's advocate-y statement and say berkeley these mother berkeleyers, let's load the fire-trucks with pig's blood.

Jensenman wrote: I don't deny that there are wackos in every walk of life. There's plenty of (insert your favorite group here) who do terrible things, sometimes with the alleged backing of their group. As Wally said, there are also many of every stripe doing good things as well. So let me pose this question: if the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood decided to open a branch office in Harlem (or any other majority black 'hood) would this message board group support it? Even if they had the dollars to do so and 'the dollar rules all'? And no I am not saying Muslims and KKK members are the same type of person, if anyone here says that it came from their warped mind not mine. I am posing a hypothetical. I will say this: if you say it's OK to put a mosque 2 blocks from the most terrible deed ever done by Muslim extremists and you say it's not OK for white power extremists to do the same in Harlem, you have just reinforced the double standard. Once that double standard is gone then maybe we can all start truly getting along.

Ahh, no. This comparison would work if it was the taliban who wanted to build a cultural center, but it doesn't work comparing Muslims to the kkk.

Joey

Please read the original New York newspaper article here.

poopshovel wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote: i want the most valuable piece of real estate i can find, but there's already a couple of big-ass buildings on it. what to do, what to do....

angry made a funnay. And having just heard about the whole "Hey, we're having our grand opening on the tenth anniversary of the big terrorist attacks on the U.S.," please allow me to recant my earlier devil's advocate-y statement and say berkeley these mother berkeleyers, let's load the fire-trucks with pig's blood.

At some point the line is crossed between coincidence and intentionally poking the bear.

Jerry From LA wrote: Please read the original New York newspaper article here.

Now lets not get on that "not all Muslims are terrorists" thing again. We all know they are, so lets just get rid of them.

BTW- There are a lot of people out there with guns killing people, which of course makes all gun owners bad... we should get rid of them also...

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” “We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61.

I agree with the Iman (that makes me evil you know), what better way to remind them of what they should not be, and what better way to remind others of what they are, face the situation, don't run away from it.

P.S. I have not seen any confirmation on the opening day info, so I will reserve comment on that... the internetz have been know to be a bit less then accurate sometimes.

aircooled wrote:

Jerry From LA wrote: Please read the original New York newspaper article here.

Now lets not get on that "not all Muslims are terrorists" thing again. We all know they are, so lets just get rid of them. BTW- There are a lot of people out there with guns killing people, which of course makes all gun owners bad... we should get rid of them also...

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” “We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61.

I agree with the Iman (that makes me evil you know), what better way to remind them of what they should not be, and what better way to remind others of what they are, face the situation, don't run away from it. P.S. I have not seen any confirmation on the opening day info, so I will reserve comment on that... the internetz have been know to be a bit less then accurate sometimes.

1. The quickest way to lose a debate is to overstate your argument. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone here saying "All muslims are terrorists." Certainly not me.

2. The organizers of this whole deal have been quoted on multiple news stations multiple times over the last few days regarding their decision to start groundbreaking on the tenth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. It's not 'internetz' garble. Watch the news.

3. Given the fact that a bunch of these Imams have come out admonishing the dudes involved with 9/11....only to be caught later on video praising them and referring to them as the "Magnificent 19," do you think it's more likely that they are GENUINELY interested in starting the groundbreaking on 9/11 because they're doing it to honor the victims?

Or do you think MAYBE considering the fact that a lot of these dudes do the "Oh yeah, terrorism's bad. We're a peaceful culture " combined with the fact that they're currently trying to raise money via the muslim community in New York would more likely suggest that they're doing this as a big middle finger to all us infidels?

1. Apparently I am a stupid berkeleying infidel, as I still can't figure out how to make this whole 'numbered list' thing work

I totally agree, formatting on this board is a total pain

I wasn't overstating my argument, I was overstating the counter argument.

You say you don't believe anyone thinks "all Muslims are terrorists", yet you, and many others feel fine in treating all of them as if they are. By your statement alone (between #3 and the second #1) you are essentially assuming a negative motive. Even by the odds (and I have no idea what the real numbers are), I would have to guess maybe 10% (!?!) at most of Muslims in the US have some kind of radical view (or some sort of support for the 9/11 attack), certainly not the majority (!?!), why would you assume negative? Do you assume that more than 50% of US Muslims support the 9/11 attacks? I honestly would guess it in the sub 1%.

Honestly, a lot of the "Muslims are bad" thing, smells a lot like many other situations in history. Demonetization of the "enemy". Yet when the people (soldiers) actually meet that "enemy" they find them to be very similar to themselves. The interesting thing about this situation is that it is not the government doing the demonizing.

I suspect if most of these Muslim doubters (or whatever you would call them) actually spend some time with some Muslims (especially American ones), you might be be so quick to judge.

What!? No comment on the gun analogy, I thought that was pretty good... some Muslims are bad, thus all must be treated as bad... some gun owners are bad, thus all must be treated as bad... nothing...

aircooled: I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not going to make any brown-data guestimates as to how many "good muslims" and "bad muslims" there are, as that would be silly. My assumption is based on these particular folks actions, not the sole fact that they are muslims. See my earlier post. I try not to judge intentions. So when these dudes decide to build a mosque close to where the twin towers used to be, I don't assume there's ill-will involved in their choice of location.

However, when they shoot for a groundbreaking ceremony to be held on the anniversary of the destruction of those towers by other muslims, who had the specific intent of killing the non-muslim infidels, their actions reflect their intentions.

They're saying "No, no, you don't get it, we're trying to show everyone how peaceful we are, and how we're not like those guys who blew up the buildings," but the people of New York are saying "berkeley you, it's beyond insulting to us." Now if the guys setting up the mosque said "Wow, we're sorry, maybe that was a little short-sighted of us," no harm, no foul, everything's cool. Maybe that will be the case. Until then, they're telling the muslim community "We need to raise money for this mosque...that we're building near 'ground zero'....that we're planning to break ground on on September 11, 2011, and we could really use your donations." That's where my opinion becomes: These mother berkeleyers are doing the wink-wink-nod.

No offense, but I think the gun owner analogy was silly. First, because I'm not saying "all muslims are bad," second, because gun ownership is not a religion.

OK, I can respect the fact that you are basing your opinion on that particular group (which I really know nothing about).

Unfortunately I think that there are a lot of people who just lump all the Muslims together without a second thought, and that is of course were the gun analogy comes in. I am sure most gun owners would not want to be assumed to be of the same ilk as the thugs running around blasting "caps" in each other (its the assumption I was going for, the fact that one is not a religion I don't believe is relevant).

I would say the ground breaking date is at the least insensitive (and stupid), but, like you, I would really like to hear their side on that... maybe they are just clueless as to how sensitive it is (I am sure they are aware now though).

I would have to see the menu. Around here, you can get some great Perogies and the occasional cheap spaghetti dinner at a church. I have no other reason for them, so unless they are serving something decent, why waste the money?

pinchvalve wrote: I would have to see the menu.

I have some Paki and Turk friends and man do they have some good eats. Ofcourse... the church we meet at has red/white curbing and no muffler requirements. We would probably all agree that a road course at ground zero would be berkeleying awesome.