Moving to Europe

Perpetually new "expat" here. Wife works as a Foreign Service Officer for the State Dept. Every 2-3 years we end up someplace new. We are totally insulated from the local bureaucratic nightmares that most expats would have, but we see what it takes to get stuff done abroad.

Things that have made living abroad easier? Learn the local language. Make it a job almost. 4-5 days a week a few hours a day for 6 months and you'll be proficient enough to chit chat with the local fish and veg mongers and get welcomed in by the local baker every morning. Goes a long ways towards feeling integrated. It's reasonably cheap to do as well; 20-40 Euros an hour in Austria, 10 Euros an hour in Greece, etc. Find a good teacher who will help you learn what you need. I learn how to shop in the market, how to talk about car parts and repairs, and how to call out measurements, etc. Works great along side "Hello! My name is J and I only speak a little Greek. I'm sorry! I need...."

Setup either Google Voice or Google Fi while in the USA. You can take it with you overseas, and it makes 2 factor authentication for banking in the USA easy via texts on WiFi. This is a massive pain otherwise. 

When dealing with bureaucracy in hard places I learned this tip from a friend who was an expat in Italy.  Every time you go with the form to the govt office, take a notebook and ask for the name of who you deal with. Make notes of what they said you need, etc. when you get turned away. Do this very obviously. When you come back and they say you need another form, pull out the notebook and refer to the notes. You'll very quickly get things solved, or at least they'll make sure you get everything you need to do it.

You can dip your toes in the EU without getting a visa by doing 90 in and 90 out in Shengen. 90 days in Spain, then 90 days in someplace outside Shengen. Booking.com is the best way to find long term stays in the EU, much less expensive than AirBnB. I know in the rural areas in much of the EU you can find apartments for 40-60 Euros a night long term, even less if you can do a few months. We rented an apartment in the alps in Austria for 500 Euros a month inclusive, and one on a Greek island for 350 Euros a month on a year round basis. 
 

This thought has crossed my mind as well. Never been to Spain but we visited Portugal last September and loved it. Porto in particular felt like a great city - not too big, not too small. Fantastic food. We were told that Portuguese kids get about ten years of studying English in public schools so that's nice to have but I'd absolutely want to take an immersive crash course to learn the language.

I know that I can Google it but what's the basic outline of these attractive "golden visa" programs?

Really basic outline?

"You bring us enough cash, you get a visa" .

A lot of countries basically have investor visas, if you invest enough money, you get a residency permit out of the deal. yes, even the US has one of those - you can get a Green Card if you bring enough money.

IIRC the Portugese version is attractive because the pile of cash you need to bring is comparatively small, and I believe purchasing a house counts. Most of the "golden visas" require investments into businesses and similar, and your living costs are on top of that.

Size of the cash pile also seems to depend if you're looking at a place that doesn't have an extradition treaty or if that is less of a concern .

Keep in mind that even in Portugal, you still need to bring a fair amount of money -  a quick search suggests that "it depends", but the minimum amounts I'm seeing thrown around are between 250k to 280k Euros. They also seem to offer a relatively short path to citizenship, which is an extra bonus.

Keep a close eye on the Golden Visa situation. There has been a lot of rumblings that the program may not exist next year in Portugal and a few other European countries. Honestly, that is the biggest thing that has made it tough for me is the visa part of it. I've been talking to a lot of EU recruiters and most are not even looking at overseas applicants right now because of the issues and delays getting the work visa. Most of the "Retirement" Visa programs start at 50 and I just turn 47 at the end of the month. I have a decent pile of cash but not enough to lock in 500K Euro into real estate without working for the next 15-20 years. 

If I could get that solved, I will be out of the US in no time flat. 

OHSCrifle said:

This thought has crossed my mind as well. Never been to Spain but we visited Portugal last September and loved it. Porto in particular felt like a great city - not too big, not too small. Fantastic food. We were told that Portuguese kids get about ten years of studying English in public schools so that's nice to have but I'd absolutely want to take an immersive crash course to learn the language.

I know that I can Google it but what's the basic outline of these attractive "golden visa" programs?

After more recent research, it looks like Portugal  is the clear winner for a number of reasons. The entry cost for a golden visa a cheaper, living expenses are comparable to Spain, housing is cheaper, more people speak English, the wait for citizenship is 5  years versus  10 for Spain, and Portugal doesn't tax "passive" income  (dividends, rental income, etc).

While the entry point is technically lower at 250,000  euro, thats for  an "arts donation"....meaning you don't  really have anything to show for it except the  golden visa. Buying 500,000 euro worth of  property also grants you  a golden visa, but because the property tends to be less expensive, that could  equate to 3 condos in Portugal.

Edit: Golden Visa requirements apparently changed pretty drastically  in 2022. Buying a home in a desirable area is no longer an option. Boo

• New rules apply to Portugal Golden Visa applications submitted from January 1st 2022
• Portugal Golden Visa Funds minimum investment amount is €500,000
• Portugal Golden Visa Capital Transfer minimum amount is €1.5 million
• Residential real estate investment for the Golden Visa is restricted to low-density, interior territories of mainland Portugal as well as the Azores and Madeira

calteg said:

In reply to Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) :

PM'd, though I know the PM system  here is  wonky

got it.  sorry way short on time and just happened to be surfing for a second.

regarding pets:  Lufthansa, layover in frankfurt, costs nowhere near $4000 a pet.  We've done it three times with two, three, and four dogs respectively.  Check out their Frankfurt pet center on the googles if you get the chance.

calteg said:

OHSCrifle said:

This thought has crossed my mind as well. Never been to Spain but we visited Portugal last September and loved it. Porto in particular felt like a great city - not too big, not too small. Fantastic food. We were told that Portuguese kids get about ten years of studying English in public schools so that's nice to have but I'd absolutely want to take an immersive crash course to learn the language.

I know that I can Google it but what's the basic outline of these attractive "golden visa" programs?

After more recent research, it looks like Portugal  is the clear winner for a number of reasons. The entry cost for a golden visa a cheaper, living expenses are comparable to Spain, housing is cheaper, more people speak English, the wait for citizenship is 5  years versus  10 for Spain, and Portugal doesn't tax "passive" income  (dividends, rental income, etc).

While the entry point is technically lower at 250,000  euro, thats for  an "arts donation"....meaning you don't  really have anything to show for it except the  golden visa. Buying 500,000 euro worth of  property also grants you  a golden visa, but because the property tends to be less expensive, that could  equate to 3 condos in Portugal.

Edit: Golden Visa requirements apparently changed pretty drastically  in 2022. Buying a home in a desirable area is no longer an option. Boo

• New rules apply to Portugal Golden Visa applications submitted from January 1st 2022
• Portugal Golden Visa Funds minimum investment amount is €500,000
• Portugal Golden Visa Capital Transfer minimum amount is €1.5 million
• Residential real estate investment for the Golden Visa is restricted to low-density, interior territories of mainland Portugal as well as the Azores and Madeira

The Douro Valley is quite rural with a nice river and vineyards everywhere. I only saw it as a tourist but it was beautiful. Windmills everywhere too.

google Nazare - Biggest surf waves in the world. 

Slightly off topic: I spent a summer in Europe way back in 1980 at 17YO. In Bologna I traveled through the train station 1 day before the Red Brigade set off a bomb there killing 85 people. Earlier I had been in a little cafe in Portugal and took note of what looked like bullet holes  in the wall. I asked the waiter and he just said "separatists". The ARN mainly operated in Spain, so I think that he was messing with me, but it did put a little tingle up my spine. 

Still the best summer of my life.

I've always had a soft spot for Greek people. Would be interesting to look into the realities of living someplace like Corfu.

A friend built a vacation home in inland Sicily and after half-a dozen years of visiting moved permanently with no regrets. Although he says that ever since they got serious about kicking the mafia out, it's becoming steadily more overrun by tourists. I've always thought that I'd rather live a few miles inland than at the beach (any beach). Get a lot more house for your money, far fewer tourists,  but you can still have your toes in the ocean in 20 minutes.

Last thought -  I have an old pal who has split 90 percent of his time over the past 40 years in Taiwan and Italy. He's completely smitten with Slovenia. Not an easy entry, but he's got a 1-year visa and is trying to start a factory there, which he should be able to leverage into citizenship. It's a mainly mountainous country. Very beautiful and relatively inexpensive. 

Fueled by Caffeine said:

stroker said:

I thought everyone was moving to Canada...

I want better weather than Canada can provide.  But I guess it's hard to get worse than Minnesota. 

Up here in Edmonton the coldest weather my dad and our friend ever dealt with was in  Minnesota January or February 1996 when they took down a dirt late model to sell at a swap meet. It was like minus 40  something.

So interesting reading expat stories, thanks for sharing everyone.

The only move that ever appealed to me was the story of the couple who ran the hotel where I spent my first honeymoon. The place featured 6 normal rooms, 2 suites, a restaurant, and an owners suite.  The couple who ran it (and lived on site) told me that they were vacationing there 10 years ago and the owner mentioned that he wanted to retire and move back to wherever he was from. They made him an offer to run it, he accepted, and they never went home. The called their (adult) kids back in Boston and told them to pack up their house and sell it, they quit their jobs, and they had not been back to the states since. They were in their early 50's at the time and were apparently very ready for a change. 

2023 update: Our stock portfolio and house equity both took major hits since I made this thread, plus the wife lost her job for a little bit. 

I also ran the numbers and found that pushing "retirement" back 5 years also provides much more cushion. 

Oddly enough, one of our good friends mentioned Croatia. Beautiful country, low cost of living, but apparently 90% of the population smokes and the language is very, very difficult to learn, so that was a non-starter.

I'm sad that I missed the window on Portugal, but a lot of countries are rolling out digital nomad visas