My Car is Going to Kill the Person Behind Me

Well, it isn't exactly my car, but it is going to cause an accident.... 

I have a rental odyssey minivan that I have learned has an accident avoidance feature where it will apply maximum braking if it senses that a collision is likely/possible/imminent/etc.

I first discovered it when we were doing some rehearsals and using the van as a makeshift camera vehicle. I had to stop just short of hitting my friend running at the van, and it applied the brakes on its own - full abs stop.

Wasn't that alarming as I was already braking heavy and thought it was probably to avoid hitting a person.   Not sure why I assigned the feature to pedestrian avoidance (how would it reliably know the difference between a person and a car anyway?)

Well, I was driving with the family a few days later and the traffic stopped pretty quickly in front of me so i slowed down fast.  I had room, but was going to extend my stop right up to the car in front of me to make the stop as gentle as possible.  No one had even said anything about it as I was coming to a stop - it was that much of a non-issue.   I was just going to end up 1-2' off of the car in front of me.  Suddenly the van went into full brake mode, and stuff in the van flew forward.  And it kept on the binders until we were at a full stop, even though the car in front of me had kept moving.    I braced for impact from behind but luckily it never happened.

This scenario repeated a few days ago and, once again, I was sure that whomever was behind me would not be expecting a van to come to a sudden stop.  Luckily they didn't hit us.

So I located the override button and turn it off every time now.

But this seems really unsafe.  I understand what it is supposed to do, but in all of the situations I was definitely not going to hit anything/one until the van intervened and suddenly I was expecting to get into an accident.  If it would adjust the brake pressure to not just come to a complete and irreversible stop but slow down enough to avoid the vehicle in front, it seems like it could graduate into a good idea.

Maybe this has been discussed before, but I don't recall seeing it.   Just seems that the technology just isn't quite there yet to do this safely.

This reminds me very much of the early GM antilock brakes.  "Holy E36 M3! A wheel slipped a bit!  Turn off all the brakes until we can determine the cause at a long, boozy meeting!"

Wife's new Tuscon had lane drift avoidance.  Would seemingly yank the wheel it situations that never called for it. We promptly turned that E36 M3 OFF.

I like the idea of it, but when i had it on rental cars i found it disturbing. Also the proximity cruise control when it slows down automatically with no indicator. On the highway its not super noticable when you are used to regular good ol' "stupid" cruise control. 
 

I would get back from a trip where i had a rental car and be super happy to see my zero-nanny 4cyl/5 speed old truck waiting for me.  With a real manual trans, im stirring the gears around directly with a metal stick. 

My 2022 Civic Si has this.  I experienced a similar situation.  Hate it!  It can be turned off and it is now always off.  

The adaptive cruise acts just like the collision avoidance.  Fortunately, it can be switched to traditional cruise control and it stays there when you turn the car on/off.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2022/06/30/nhtsa-seeks-more-information-from-honda-in-investigation-of-1-7m-vehicles-for-reported-unintended-braking/

File a complaint at https://www.nhtsa.gov/campaign/safercargov and help the man work it out. Your taxpayer dollars are already at work.

I guess one good take-away is to make sure I leave even more room between me and the car in front.   Because as much as the guy behind me probably wasn't expecting me to slam on the brakes to a stop, I don't know that I would be expecting that either.    And it seems that the rule is, if you rear-end someone it's 99% of the time 100% your fault.

I wonder if this feature is responsible for a small number of the times I've muttered "Geez, learn how to use your brakes!" at the car in front of me when they apparently come to a complete stop for no reason.

Would this be better if it had a buzzer warning you it was putting on the brakes for you ?
 

it seems like a good idea in principal, but it seems to be too abrupt like a punch in the face !

In reply to californiamilleghia :

Every one I've experienced has made a big deal about triggering the braking. Some cars have multiple levels of panic, they'll warn you of a problem first before hitting the brakes. And on some implementations, you can set the paranoia level.

I have the most experience with the Tesla system. It will slow the car (not always a complete stop), it will warn you in advance that it's getting worried and that it thinks you should do something, and you can adjust the sensitivity. That car can also tell pedestrians from vehicles, but I don't know if it changes behavior depending on the impending target. Overall, it's pretty well judged, I can't think of the last time it falsed. I know it's helped Janel at least once when another unexpected distraction in the car happened at just the wrong time.

So like so many other things, the concept is not fatally flawed but the implementation can be bad.

Auto emergency braking is a modern feature I kind of wished my 86 had, good to hear that I'd probably end up disabling it out of frustration anyway...

I'm thinking this feature is present on my 2019 Mazda CX-9, but I've never had an issue with it.  The adaptive cruise control is really cool.  I drove the car for a year before I ever ventured to use it, but now if I'm taking a lengthy drive on the interstate, I use it regularly.

My son had an incident where he said the brakes engaged abruptly as he was nearing a stopped car in front of him, but he does tend to brake late and he often makes me a bit nervous to see a bumper coming up at light speed and him not braking until what I perceive as the last second. I brake early and maintain a generous distance between my vehicle and the car ahead, so I've not had any experience with this feature.

Sounds like the Honda version may be more aggressive.

I can't comment about "more aggressive," because I don't have anything to compare it to, but I can confirm "not as smart as it thinks it is." In our 2020 Odyssey, the first thing I do at startup is disable the auto-engine-off-at-stoplights feature. That's a button right beside the transmission selector. The second thing I do is disable the Collision Avoidance feature (button on the left down by the second-tier stuff like mirror heat.) This system cannot understand oncoming traffic approaching on a curve – even though it's in its proper lane – and it invariably yells and screams if someone is right-turning out of my way.

There's another system that grabs your steering wheel for you, but I have that permanently disabled in the vehicle settings.

I totally get that driving is a complex task: even some humans demonstrably aren't up to it. I'm not surprised we're having a long learning curve teaching it to machines. That said, I am not convinced there's a net benefit to distracting a driver by flashing BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE at him while he is (or ought to be) fully engaged looking out the windshield, at his mirrors, etc. I'm glad Honda lets me turn it off – even though I'm sure my van is reporting me to Honda Central Command as a reckless deviant.

Appleseed said:

Wife's new Tuscon had lane drift avoidance.  Would seemingly yank the wheel it situations that never called for it. We promptly turned that E36 M3 OFF.

God do I hate this feature with the force of 1000 suns.  Same car, same issue with it.  I honestly thought I was crazy the first time it happened. 

In reply to jfryjfry :

In my wife's Honda I was able to lower the sensitivity of that safety feature, or just turn it off. I turned it all the way down. We've had the car since 2019 and after 40k miles never had this happen to us.

Toyota's are the absolute worst, and in the new ones so far as I can see it cannot be turned off. I was in the left lane in a rental Camry or something with the adaptive cruise on (another hated feature) and the interstate curved fairly sharply. Mid curve a very tall concrete retaining wall started on the left side. The Camry assumed I was going to hit it and applied emergency braking. I has a semi on my ass at the time and he had to go for the shoulder to avoid me. (he was way to close) I nearly E36 M3 my drawers, and on top of that I looked like a fool because there was no one ahead of me and I had no apparent reason for braking. 

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

And if you were hit the truck driver would probably think you trying to pull some insurance fraud.  

I'm 50/50 with these systems. On one hand, a lot of people need them.  On the other I still see it as an education breakdown and people don't want to learn to drive anymore. So we're fixing the wrong problem.  We aren't teaching people the right way to drive. We're teaching them to abuse safety systems to save their butts.

What I'm afraid of is when insurance companies will eventually be notified that you're turning off the nannies and up your rates on you.  

I used to be one of those "I don't need TCS, I don't need ABS, blah blah blah" people but it has its merits.  With that said, alot of these systems seem like they are aggressive to the point of potentially causing issues and incidents.  

I know it was an older car, but my wife's old Ford Five Hundred once got really squirrelly on a straight, flat road because the stability control kicked on over a TINY bit of black ice.  It almost took the wheel out of my hand for something that I never saw or felt while driving.

golfduke said:

Appleseed said:

Wife's new Tuscon had lane drift avoidance.  Would seemingly yank the wheel it situations that never called for it. We promptly turned that E36 M3 OFF.

God do I hate this feature with the force of 1000 suns.  Same car, same issue with it.  I honestly thought I was crazy the first time it happened. 

Best implementation I've seen of that is on a VW Sportwagen. The center line just felt...sticky. The steering would slightly resist it. The weirdest tactile response but very effective. No other indication, just some reluctance on the car to cross the line if you didn't have the turn indicator on.

The Tesla feels like you're running over botts dots. I turn it off on the ND Miatas because it's an annoying version.

I'm all for ABS, as that means all wheels can brake to the maximum traction they have available instead of all wheels braking to the maximum  traction of the worst wheel.

Keith Tanner said:

 

I'm all for ABS, as that means all wheels can brake to the maximum traction they have available instead of all wheels braking to the maximum  traction of the worst wheel.

I quite like the ABS in my 03 Volvo, because when I feel it pulsing, I know I've done something dumb, and it doesn't push the pedal back against my foot.

 I pulled the fuse in my 2000 Silverado the second time it tried to kill me by shutting off all the brakes after hitting a pothole on the approach to a highway.

Too much.  Too much.  Once the manufacturers  kinda figure out that too much is worse than none at all, it gets better.  Sounds like maybe we are in the same early times with all the shiny-magic-never-die stuff.

While new cars are arguably safer than old cars, I think the amount of distractions they afford us is a dangerous trend. Driving used to be something you had to pay attention to. Clutches, no cameras, etc. Now we have full on Tesla autopilot where people are being pulled over for taking a nap behind the wheel. That's a scary thing. 

My daily driver has 99hp from the factory.  315k later it's probably 85.  I don't need no stinkin brakes

From the insurance perspective I like the concepts of safety features but do agree that the execution isn't always as intended.  Time and development money usually lead to improvement 

The Kia Soul rental I had made several murder by hypothermia attempts on me while I had it in Minnesota.

I'd be trying to get up enough momentum to push through a snow drift by just barely spinning the wheels and every-damn-time I'd try, the Soul would spoil my efforts by engaging the TC system.

On the complete opposite side of the spectrum was the AWD Ford Fusion I was given one week after the polar vortex of 2019 rolled through Minnesota...that tenacious little champ clawed and clawed its way up to speed letting me spin a little but also helping just the right amount at just the right time when needed.

I owe some FMC software engineer a beer.

Streetwiseguy said:

Keith Tanner said:

 

I'm all for ABS, as that means all wheels can brake to the maximum traction they have available instead of all wheels braking to the maximum  traction of the worst wheel.

I quite like the ABS in my 03 Volvo, because when I feel it pulsing, I know I've done something dumb, and it doesn't push the pedal back against my foot.

 I pulled the fuse in my 2000 Silverado the second time it tried to kill me by shutting off all the brakes after hitting a pothole on the approach to a highway.

Too much.  Too much.  Once the manufacturers  kinda figure out that too much is worse than none at all, it gets better.  Sounds like maybe we are in the same early times with all the shiny-magic-never-die stuff.

The ABS in a 2000 Silverado is at least 20 years old and built for a solid axle truck. It's come a long way since then.