Steve_Jones said:
- From 2005 to 2019, pit bulls were involved in 66% of fatal dog attacks in the U.S. (source: DogsBite.org).
- Pit bulls make up about 6-8% of the dog population in the U.S.
Defend them all you want, but make sure your insurance is up to date, and more importantly, covers the dog. Many companies will not.
That is interesting, Id love to see the raw data there too.
Unfortunately I think the reason is people think they are "badass" and train them that the aggression is good and it's what leads to the problems. Personally the most aggressive aszhole dogs ive been around are chihuahua's and a Chow.
Also there's this data which is also interesting
In reply to Antihero :
My point is pretty much all dogs have sharp teeth and can do serious damage if they want to. Don't glorify/demonize/sensationalize pit bulls as being the only ones to do serious damage.
I never demonized or sensationalized them. I just stated what I thought was obvious- stronger, larger dogs can do a lot more damage when they bite than smaller dogs. A cocker spaniel may bite you, but it is incapable of doing anywhere the level of damage as many other dogs. I'm not singling out pit bulls, that just happened to be the breed that someone else referenced and I observed killing another dog and trying to remove the arm of a man. It also successfully resisted the efforts of a group of men to stop the attack.
Dogs are carnivores with sharp teeth and millennia of practice using them with only the love and respect of their family/pack standing between them from using it.
That is why punishment rarely works well in dog training.
Yes, and the results vary greatly from breed to breed and dog to dog. But the risks from an obedience or training failure are much more severe from some breeds. I love dogs. Some of the greatest, gentlest dogs I've know have been German Shepards, Rottweilers, and Dobermans. I have family in law enforcement including a K9 officer. Dogs with tens of thousands of dollars in training. Even then, some of those go wrong. The odds of that happening are much higher if the dog ends up without the training and instead becomes a fashion accessory.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Fair, it seemed like you were singling out pitbulls but it looks like instead you and I agree on dogs.
The dog in question is a German Shepherd dog.
Our dog is a total mutt that we legit don't know what all breeds, but most likely has a significant portion of American native dog.
There are no pitbulls involved in this situation.
Driven5
PowerDork
12/30/24 3:17 a.m.
ddavidv said:
Get your wife some pepper spray for the inevitable next time.
Just making sure this doesn't get lost in all the noise. Not just for the wife either. Might be good to take a pepper spray class too.
In reply to Driven5 :
She already knew to do that. She got a canister of citronella dog deterrent spray.
Driven5
PowerDork
12/30/24 12:38 p.m.
In reply to Beer Baron ๐บ :
Citronella spray is fine and all, but I wouldn't be without actual OC proper spray too. Citronella is mild enough that many people regularly use it on their own dogs as a mere training aid. Sure it might get most dogs to pause their attack, and might get many dogs to abort their attack, but that's far from guaranteed... And what to do then?
Pepper spray also works on human attackers, including those that might be upset that their 'friendly' dog got sprayed by anything they reacted to in the first place, even if just by some citronella.
Driven5 said:
In reply to Beer Baron ๐บ :
Citronella spray is fine and all, but I'd recommend carrying actual OC proper spray too. Citronella is basically just a mildly irritating training training aid, that many people regularly use on their own dogs. Sure it might get most dogs to pause their attack, and might get many dogs to abort their attack, but that's far from guaranteed... And what do you do then? Pepper spray also works on human attackers, including those that might be upset that their 'friendly' dog got sprayed by anything they reacted to in the first place, even if just by some citronella.
"One eye on the dog, one on the owner".
Antihero said:
Also there's this data which is also interesting
That's not what the data shows, because of the testing methodology. What it really shows is the homogeneity of individual dogs' behavior within their breed. So if someone were able to de-extinct the Old English Bulldog and every one of them tried to kill anything they saw on sight, that breed would score 100%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperament_test#American_Temperament_Test_Society
From my experience pitbulls don't seem to be notably ill-tempered if they weren't raised by shiny happy people (although they are the #1 breed of choice for shiny happy people who want a big mean dog for some reason or other), but obviously they're capable of dealing an unusual level of damage if something does set them off.
Both times I've been seriously bitten by a dog, it's been a German Shepherd. The first one that bit me left a scar on my leg that doesn't look to terrible these days, but when you're a wee kid, it's pretty damn big. I didn't want to go outside for a while, since the people that owned it lived under us. That dog eventually turned on the owner's child, and was put down. The second one happened when I was delivering pizzas. No barking, no warning, it just came out and grabbed my arm. I was in college, and defended myself aggressively.
I have *zero* tolerance for aggressive dogs, but I also agree that the owners are the problem.
I'm glad you reported it- documentation is important. Like somebody else said, people can have blind spots when it comes to their pets, but a paper trail cuts through that.
The whole Pitbull thing seems pretty clear to me. A: They have a disproportionately high percentage of asshat owners, and B: They are large caliber weapons. I read somewhere that the two dogs most likely to bite a human are Cocker Spaniels and Chihuahuas. Whether that's true or not, the general concept holds. The little guys simply can't do that much damage, regardless of intent.
ddavidv
UltimaDork
1/1/25 7:48 a.m.
Apologies to any owners, but I berkeleying hate Chihuahuas. They are evil little creatures pretending to be dogs. And I say that with my own mother having had a few.
Sometimes there are just dogs that are bad. It's usually the owner, but our go-to trainer (who is very experienced with GSD's) took in a German Shepherd that even she cannot control. It's been frustrating and heartbreaking for her, and impossible to find someone willing to take it on. Granted, she did not have it from a pup, but when you have an experienced person unable to bring a dog under control with assured safety, it's a problem. Now place that dog in Mr. Common Idiot's hands...
Update - Heard from Animal control. They have taken the report.
The officer asked if we want this just recorded for Lookup purposes (which it will be no matter what). He asked if we'd like to press charges. That's a tougher one, but having to kinda make a decision on the spot, I decided that I don't think the owner is taking this seriously. So an officer will be coming by our house tomorrow to take a full report.
I put it in the rant thread, but the owner was quibbling over paying us the $30 for the rabies booster. That's just... if you're going to argue over something as insignificant as that, you're clearly not feeling responsible for what happened.
pheller
UltimaDork
1/7/25 1:14 p.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:
Many bad owners are not superficially at least, "bad" or stupid people. They just have huge blind spots. I suppose that shouldn't be a surprise in this day and age: "little Timmy's disruptive at school? It must be the school's fault."
I'm sure this plays a bigger factor in a lot of things about modern life. We're inundated with information, with what we think society expects of us, what we're missing out on, and we tend to miss the stuff that isn't on a screen.
I understand people like their personal space but I'm a big advocate for being chatty and communicative with neighbors, even if it makes you seem like a Karen. It's crazy to me that people think being friendly with neighbors is being nosey. I've got an HOA but all of the members are very hands off and I've been accused of being the Board President although I've never served.
I don't want to invade your space but when your pets invade mine, I'm going to let you know.
A few years back we had some neighbors who just didn't think leashing their dogs was necessary. I'll admit that they were friendly dogs, but we had another neighbor who had a former K9 who was not friendly and even with a muzzle on that dog tried to kill the friendly dogs during an off-leash run in. The K9's owner was pissed not in the least because she tried very hard to keep her dog in a low-stress peaceful environment. She didn't want the dog she adopted to be put down when she did everything right. Later, the friendly dogs came into my yard and my wife flipped ship on the owners. I talked with them more calmly and explained again that we (and others in the hood) would appreciate if they leashed the dogs and kept better track of them (they frequently escaped their property). They moved a few months later claiming "suburban life wasn't for them". The renters they've got in their old house are big moto guys, constantly doing (slow) parade laps and clearing the pipes during the summer. It's annoying, but it's not going to hurt my kids.
pheller said:
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:
Many bad owners are not superficially at least, "bad" or stupid people. They just have huge blind spots.
I understand people like their personal space but I'm a big advocate for being chatty and communicative with neighbors, even if it makes you seem like a Karen.
I don't want to invade your space but when your pets invade mine, I'm going to let you know.
This addresses my dilemma with this dog and what best to do about it.
She is at least somewhat aware that her dog is very reactive and potentially dangerous. She carved a path in the wooded lot behind her house to be able to walk her dogs where they wouldn't cross paths with other dogs. She tries to keep it contained. But she's not a perfect jailer, and when it does get out, it attacks other dogs.
She's very protective and caring of it. She's spent a fair amount on medical care.
I think she's got a massive blinder about just how dangerous it is.
When I spoke with her, she repeatedly told me how her dog hasn't attacked and bitten another dog like this since four years ago. In her mind, that amount of time was a defense. Not ignoring its behavior, but excusing it.
I don't know if the right thing to do is to talk to her more and try to get through to her how serious we take this. Or if we go ahead and press charges. Or if there is some other intermediate step that might impress upon her how serious this is.
pheller
UltimaDork
1/7/25 2:20 p.m.
You are basically looking for any way that doesn't involve legal consequences or the dog being put down. You've made attempts to communicate. The line of communication is open, but it's not great.
I'd probably want to hear from the owner about what changes she intends to make in order to keep her dog under control. One of my other neighbors (who also didn't believe in leashes) apologized to our whole neighborhood on our facebook group that his dog had been a friendly menace and that he'd make sure the dog was always leashed, but that was after Animal Control spoke to him about the issue.
She's got a proverbial weapon with a mind of it's own that she can't keep tabs on.
Do you have any "neighbor friends" who feel similarly to you who might join you for a sort of planned intervention? Like "hey a few of us were hoping you might have some time to talk about what's going on with your dog because we're concerned and we'd like to hear from you about any changes you've made or if you need our help with anything?"
If that doesn't work, let Animal Control and LEO deal with it.
I had a former neighbor who thought a frickin Redbone Coonhound would be a great dog to leave at home alone every day, but he felt bad keeping her inside in a cage so her let her outside all day to bark at windmills - and bark she did. It took a few stern warnings, a fine, and a suggestion from an ACO that "hey, maybe owning a dog isn't the best thing for your current life situation?" He claimed he wanted a dog for his son, because boys should have best friends, but his son pretty much ignored the dog - so he got rid of it. When my neighbors across the street (who I like and get along with) brought home not one, but two Redbone Coonhounds - I had to hold my tongue. They too got rid of them after numerous complaints from other neighbors about incessant barking. Those blinders are up until a cop comes knocking.
pheller said:
Do you have any "neighbor friends" who feel similarly to you who might join you for a sort of planned intervention? Like "hey a few of us were hoping you might have some time to talk about what's going on with your dog because we're concerned and we'd like to hear from you about any changes you've made or if you need our help with anything?"
We're very friendly with the neighbors whose dog got attacked 4 years ago. We have plenty of other neighbors we're very friendly with on the street. Most of them we talk to in person while walking around, but don't have phone numbers or e-mails to contact them aside from FB.
I don't want to post in the FB group "anyone want to have an intervention with this person."
The other neighbor whose dog got attacked earlier has reached out to another person in the neighborhood who he knows is a friend of the owner. But their response sounded very pointedly like they didn't want to be in the middle of things.
I'm trying not to make this antagonistic. I just... my communications with her just don't seem like the situation is really sinking in for her.
It will sink in when animal control pays a visit. I'd let them handle it now.
Obviously you can't rely on any self-awareness from her. Since you're at least still on speaking terms, the closest thing to a middle ground I can think of, is being exceedingly direct with her about your position and expectations.
Basically, telling here that you've already filed a report to have this incident on record that will increase her liable if this (or worse) EVER happens again. The fact that 4 years later the dogs behavior has not improved is entirely a bad thing, not a good thing. And either she is willing and able to immediately get herself and the dog successfully trained by a professional that prevents it from being reactive or aggressive to other dogs or people, so nothing like this happens if and when it escapes again, or you'll have no choice but to press charges too. Her simply 'trying' to never let the dog escape is not good enough.
But that's certainly not an easy conversation to have, and there's no way to know if it would be better, worse, or neither in the long run than whatever happens after just pressing the easy button (charges) now.