New car destination fee and others.

Holy $hit. $1100 for a designation fee? $799 dealership documentation fee? When did it get so high? SMH. I am already frustrated with the looming car buying experience. You would think doing it off the internet may help but I am not finding that at all. Way too many phone calls to me from several car dealerships tells me they are all desperate for business and still wants to nickel/dime you to death. 

Dealers have been trying to get those prices since the first new car I bought in 1984! At least. They don't always get them, but they do try.

Good thing our doc fee is officially capped ! 
 

but yeah destination fees. Oh well. That's the new car game ... 

PA caps doc fees at $149 or $189. The destination fees are another day's discussion.

If they didn't hit you with the "Documentation Fee" they'd just keep it in the price of the car itself. 
 

In reply to Sine_Qua_Non :

So the cars are magically supposed to arrive all shined up and ready to go? 
  And the paperwork is done by?  
At least some of that is legitimate. 

while adding to the costs I can tell you from the inside dealerships seldom make a profit  selling new cars. Between inventory costs, lights, etc. and sales people costs  it's a good year when a dealership breaks even 

Their  profit center is used cars, parts and service in that order. Buying a used car from a dealership or a private party is based on what dealerships ask, not what used cars are actually worth.   
 

Dealerships have to sell new cars in order to get to the profit of used cars, parts and service. If they didn't, few would sell new at all. Because new doesn't make them any money. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Sine_Qua_Non :

So the cars are magically supposed to arrive all shined up and ready to go? 
  And the paperwork is done by?  
At least some of that is legitimate. 

while adding to the costs I can tell you from the inside dealerships seldom make a profit  selling new cars. Between inventory costs, lights, etc. and sales people costs  it's a good year when a dealership breaks even 

Their  profit center is used cars, parts and service in that order. Buying a used car from a dealership or a private party is based on what dealerships ask, not what used cars are actually worth.   
 

Dealerships have to sell new cars in order to get to the profit of used cars, parts and service. If they didn't, few would sell new at all. Because new doesn't make them any money. 

Well I am not sure about that. So far I have 6 OTD offers. Highest is $36k. Lowest is $29k. All offers are for the exact car color and trim I want. No options for it are available which makes it a lot easier. Now, the expensive one is near me. The least expensive is in CA of all freaking places. Working on the most expensive and one in the middle of the pack on a hammering out a deal. Middle of the pack is 8 hours away from me. I tried using Jeff Haas Mazda in TX (supposed to be the largest Mazda dealership in the country) but they won't work on a deal. Depending on what happens with them two, I just might pay $1k to have the car shipped to me from CA and still come out ahead on the best deal. 

z31maniac said:

If they didn't hit you with the "Documentation Fee" they'd just keep it in the price of the car itself. 
 

I would 100% prefer this.

Those fees are bullE36 M3.  If you want to charge more for the car, charge more for the car.

Its insulting to try to hide it in extra fees, and it makes searching for a car much harder as none of the prices are genuine.

Destination fees for Jeep Wranglers are $1,495. They are built in Toledo, OH.

Mazda CX-5s are built in Hiroshima, Japan. The destination fee is $1,100.

I had a dealer try and charge me a $900 dealer fee and give me a sob story. I could not get the berk out of there fast enough.

Its all stupid games.

Sine_Qua_Non said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Sine_Qua_Non :

So the cars are magically supposed to arrive all shined up and ready to go? 
  And the paperwork is done by?  
At least some of that is legitimate. 

while adding to the costs I can tell you from the inside dealerships seldom make a profit  selling new cars. Between inventory costs, lights, etc. and sales people costs  it's a good year when a dealership breaks even 

Their  profit center is used cars, parts and service in that order. Buying a used car from a dealership or a private party is based on what dealerships ask, not what used cars are actually worth.   
 

Dealerships have to sell new cars in order to get to the profit of used cars, parts and service. If they didn't, few would sell new at all. Because new doesn't make them any money. 

Well I am not sure about that. So far I have 6 OTD offers. Highest is $36k. Lowest is $29k. All offers are for the exact car color and trim I want. No options for it are available which makes it a lot easier. Now, the expensive one is near me. The least expensive is in CA of all freaking places. Working on the most expensive and one in the middle of the pack on a hammering out a deal. Middle of the pack is 8 hours away from me. I tried using Jeff Haas Mazda in TX (supposed to be the largest Mazda dealership in the country) but they won't work on a deal. Depending on what happens with them two, I just might pay $1k to have the car shipped to me from CA and still come out ahead on the best deal. 

Call the same dealers back and talk to different sales people and you'll get a whole other set of prices. Cal them again and get a 3rd set of people and you'll get a 3rd set of prices. 
 It's about buying and selling. Some people pay what's asked. Others understand the best price is seldom the first price.  They are willing to fight it out with the salesman. 

Here's how it works. First you have to really convince the salesman you're  going to buy. Then you have to get him invested in actually selling to you.  
Now there is going to be times when he needs to check with the manager. ( legitimately) and times when that's just a ploy. If you can tell the difference. You'll pay too much.  
On the other hand  you can always leave or threaten to leave. He can read you like a book if he's any good ( most aren't )  

Shopping for cars is hard because customers make it hard. They don't know the games that are played because they buy a car every so often but the salesman gets a thousand different approaches thrown at him in a month. The good guys ( that is the ones who make a decent living ) sit back and get out of your way letting you buy the car.  If you don't know how much it costs ( not the sticker price but what the dealership pays for it ) he's got an advantage over you. 
The high volume dealerships pay less for cars than the low volume dealerships but that's hidden a dozen different ways.  They may get the high demand cars.  Or the rare special editions with high performance that sell for much more than list price. 
Maybe the way they get rewarded is floor plan discounts.  Or many other deals.  
Then  too the dealership may want the green one gone because they've been paying floor plan costs too long on that one. Or they need 3 extra sales this week to qualify for the bonus. 
I've actually sold brand new cars for less than the dealership paid for them. A few hundred under actual cost. The guy worked me like a violin. I still got paid my $200 minimum commission so once I was below  that I just worked on closing him because I wanted something for all the work I'd put in. 
Back and forth to the manager. Sweating each and every trip. Trying to keep management interested in selling at a loss and trying to keep the customer willing to hang in there. 
It took almost 2 hours to put that deal together.  I've spent even more time when there is a trade in involved. I'm working the used car manager trying to sell him the trade in. I'm working the new car manager trying to get him to work with me. They can usually hear everything that's said  but they drag you over the coals to force you back and get more.  Then ultimately I have to work the buyer to Re assess his position. 

ProDarwin said:

z31maniac said:

If they didn't hit you with the "Documentation Fee" they'd just keep it in the price of the car itself. 
 

I would 100% prefer this.

Those fees are bullE36 M3.  If you want to charge more for the car, charge more for the car.

Its insulting to try to hide it in extra fees, and it makes searching for a car much harder as none of the prices are genuine.

I 1000% agree. 

But thankfully I've only ever been in the position one time where I needed to buy a car NOW, TODAY. So previously when dealers have tried this, I simply stood up and asked for the keys to my car back. 

All of a sudden they weren't as interested in the doc fee.

In reply to z31maniac :

The fees don't bother me one way or another.  Bottom line is bottom line and I don't care how the dealership wants to get there.

But that "hand over your keys" crap is total bullE36 M3.  I would turn around and walk out of any dealership that ever asked me to do that.

In reply to Duke :

In my experience, it's been a "We will give you X for trade-in, our manager is going to go take a quick test drive while you start the paperwork for the new car." So that's why I've had to ask for the keys back.

But yeah, main point. Just tell me what you want for the car and if I think it's fair, we have a deal. If I don't, we don't.

When we where new grom shopping a few dealers hit us with $700-1100 in dealer fees and shipping ect. Like yes let's tack on 1/5th of the price of the bike in fees. 

Virtually all of that stuff is negotiable.  Do your homework.  Know what the car you're interested in buying is worth and the price at which others are buying that same car.  Visit the dealership at the end of the month and tell them you want that car for $XXX. out the door.  Be sure to let them know you've also been talking to another dealership.

Now if you're trying to buy something desirable and in short supply, well you're just going to have to bend over....

I told this exact story in a similar thread a couple months back.

The VW we bought in '17, they tried to pull that crap on us.  We agreed to an out the door price, and then it went up a few hundred dollars after they added their fees.  I refused to sign.  It was only a few hundred bucks, in the grand scheme, peanuts compared to the overall price, but those were my peanuts, and I hadn't agreed to trade them for the car.

The sales manager had to get involved, tried the BS, "the state requires those fees," line on us.  He didn't really like me correcting him, "no, the state requires you disclose those fees, but they don't require you to charge them."  Then he tried to be friends with me, big smiles, joking around, "come on man, you really going to beat us up over a few hundred dollars?" stuck his hand out for a friendly handshake.  I didn't take his hand, looked him in the eyes and said, "yes." 

They amended the price of the car to make up for the cost of all of the fees, and we took the car home at the agreed upon, out the door price.

Car salesmen aren't people, they shouldn't be treated as if they are.

Both fees are total horsepoop. I've had cars shipped across country for less money than most new "destination fees." If I ordered a new car from a dealer with very specific options, then yea, I wouldn't mind paying the destination fee. Buying something that's been sitting on the lot for 60 days, no thanks. The same with documentation fees. 

I have so sympathy for dealerships. Especially ones where GMs are making $200k+ while their techs struggle on flat rate pay and their sales department resorts to scumtactics to make a healthy bottom line. 

When I bought my new car they charged me a delivery fee  and I couldn't talk them out of it. When I took delivery, the car was dirty and all four valve caps were missing. 

I paid cash for the car and put tax and license on my credit card, then turned down all the extra sealants, doodads and insurances they tried to sell me. They were probably a little pissed about all the interest and commissions they were missing out on. I can always wash my own car and they sell valve caps at the Autozone down the street. 

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

The destination charge is listed on the Monroney sticker and is set by the manufacturer.  It's been there since it stopped being legal to buy vehicles direct from the maker.

It needs to be identified and considered in your purchase price, and it may or may not be a ridiculous lobby-driven hold-over from earlier days, but it is not horsepoop.

Filing fees and other service fees are set by the dealer.  They may or may not choose to waive them.  Personally I don't care, as long as the agreed-upon price includes all fees.

If you charge me $395 "filing fee" and discount the car $395, or if you charge me $395 more for the car and waive the filing fee, does it really matter?

It's like online vendors that have "free shipping".  You're still paying for shipping; it's just rolled into the price of the item.  The bottom line is still the bottom line:  total cost to have the item in your possession.  Nomenclature is irrelevant.

That how I bought my last two vehicles, a bike and a car.

The price I'm willing to pay is the price I'm willing to pay.

How they get there is their problem, and they each did it in differing, but  creative ways

Duke said:

If you charge me $395 "filing fee" and discount the car $395, or if you charge me $395 more for the car and waive the filing fee, does it really matter?

 

Yes, because in the latter case, the price I see when searching for cars is a genuine price.  In the former case, it is not and I have to pry that information out of sales people.

Where did the fees originate?  I can't see any reason to be dishonest about the price up front other than predatory sales tactics to take advantage of people.

They originated because people wanted to see the lowest possible advertised price and didn't want to think about the big picture, and dealers wanted to advertise the lowest possible price, but still make money.

When you see one of those "But wait!  There's more!" ads for some convenience item on TV, why is there always an $11.95 shipping and handling fee?  So they can advertise the item at $19.95.

Fly to NY for $200!!

Oh, you want to bring luggage? What a concept!

(same crap, different industry)

aircooled said:

Fly to NY for $200!!

Oh, you want to bring luggage? What a concept!

(same crap, different industry)

Incorrect.  Flying and Flying + Luggage are two different things.  Many many many people fly without checking bags.  I think many search engines allow you to specify you want luggage.  Just like ebay lets you sort by price + shipping, because they are aware lots of people pull the $2 item, $20 shipping bullE36 M3.

When you search for a car, you want to buy the car.  There is no way to avoid the doc fee, transit fee, or <insert fake fee here>.  They all have to be added up and paid, but the dealer shifts them around so they can advertise a lower price. 

To be fair, if the prices were listed in some standardized way or if they were all the same, I don't think it would bother me. But right now, one dealer may have fees that total $300, another may have fees that total $1800.  On top of that, some dealers have 2 fees that they list, but then when you talk to them later, turns out there are 4 fees and the price is totally different.  Thus, the prices you see are not comparable at all.