"No Cost Solar" - is it real?

In reply to frenchyd :

You have spent too much time reading this stuff, and not enough time understanding it. The vast majority of the info you share on this subject is inaccurate, confused, or not applicable in most locations. 
 

"pay for the panels instead of the electricity" often includes a lien against your property for the value of the full installation until it is paid off.  So, it's often actually "pay for the panels and take on $50,000 in debt instead of the electricity".

I know how much you love debt...

I got a pretty compelling quote recently.  It looked like I would have to cover some out of pocket for the first few years on the order of $25.  Effectively finance payments were $115/month on a 25 year loan.  My electric bill is $90.

However, electric rates are going up, and Duke Energy has already announced a 16% rake hike next year.  Its fairly reasonable to assume they will exceed the cost of the solar financing very quickly.  So really what your are doing is locking in a rate more than anything, similar to a mortgage locking in your rent.

lnlogauge said:

In reply to bobzilla :

If the quote you got was 60k, and it takes 200 years to pay off, is your power bill savings really only 25$ a month? 

I completely forgot a step and mixted numbers when typing. Stupid thumbs and heat soaked brain. $200/mo average, 300 months, 25 years. We don't plan to be here that long. 10 at most. 

If you don't have $60k layinh around and if you took out a loan, that monthly payment would be 150-175% of what our electric bill is. So the long term payoff gets much worse. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

No, he ended up having to lower the asking price of his home.  I did bring up him asking the buyer at closing to see if the solar panels were a factor in them buying the house at all. 

Just out of curiosity, how many watts of solar do these installations include? 

It looks like a 1000-1500 sqft house uses about 10kw a month. 

A 13kw off-grid kit, including charger/inverter, and 20kwh of lithium batteries, with 11kw of panels sells for about $15k.

What are these companies installing for $50k-$60k?

Why not buy a system like the above and get off the grid completely? 

In reply to Toyman! :

Do you have links to one of these kits? I'm interested in checking them out. I'd be worried about things like the quality of the hardware and any warranty they might carry. The companies are selling complete installation - design, permits, wiring, mounts, grid tie-in, a 10 year warranty on their work for example (looking at one of my proposals). A lot of this is stuff you can do yourself, but like everything you're paying somone else for doing work. I know that my installer had the special phone number for the utility - it takes me weeks to get contact, he could call up anytime.

Total price for me was in that range with a 17 kW system.

Docwyte, you're saying the solar was actually a detriment to the selling price? I'd have  pulled the array out and parted it out, then sold the house for a higher price. That is contrary to what my Realtor(TM) friend had to say.

I don't view our array as useless debt, it's a long term plan that has benefits in a number of ways including some right now. The only downside is that it's long term. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

This is one of the systems that popped up in a Google search. I don't know anything about the quality.

https://signaturesolar.com/complete-all-in-one-off-grid-solar-kit-kit-e0000

I'm going to be building a retirement home. My plan is to build something that is very efficient in the 1000 sqft range. Going completely off the grid is very appealing to me. I had no idea that the systems have dropped in price that much. Something like this will deliver 150 amps at 240 volts. With some careful consideration in picking appliances like super-efficient heat pumps, gas stoves, and instant water heaters that should be more than enough power to keep the house running and fairly comfortable. 

In reply to Toyman! :

Cool, thanks.

I think you're low on your estimate of usage even on a highly efficient home or you mistyped - a monthly power consumption is going to be in kWh, not kW. 10 kWh doesn't make sense, that's likely less than a day's use. That battery pack seems minimal, it's only going to cover a day or so of power. But it's between 1-2 Powerwalls in capacity, so maybe not. Learning how to design a system like this would be really interesting for sure - such as, how much solar and battery do you really need to deal with a rainy week in January? More than 13 kW and 20 kWh, I expect.

Slightly off-topic, I went to visit a house for sale last week just because it was interesting. Earth brick construction, properly sited for solar gain in the winter but shade in the summer, geothermal heat, no cooling because the location allows for temperature management (let the cool air in overnight, use the thermal mass of the house to keep it cool during the day), big owned solar array, on-site water treatment to turn the rainwater in the cistern into drinking water, etc. Not fully off-grid - no batteries - but it could get there pretty easily. Also at the end of 15 minutes of very fun sportscar road. I can see you using some of these techniques for your retirement home.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Yep, mistype. kwh it should have been. 

In reply to ProDarwin :

I got a pretty compelling quote recently.  It looked like I would have to cover some out of pocket for the first few years on the order of $25.  Effectively finance payments were $115/month on a 25 year loan.  My electric bill is $90.

However, electric rates are going up, and Duke Energy has already announced a 16% rake hike next year.  Its fairly reasonable to assume they will exceed the cost of the solar financing very quickly.  So really what your are doing is locking in a rate more than anything, similar to a mortgage locking in your rent.
 

What am I missing here? It looks like you pay $90 a month for electricity? There is almost no reason why you should be looking at solar with that low of a bill. And they want to give you a finance payment of $115 a month? For 25 years!?! So they want you to take out a 25 year loan to raise your rate by over 25%. That works out to almost $35k over 25 years, which is a lot to offset a $90 bill. And you put yourself at risk of  having to pay it off if you sell your house. No prospective buyer with a calculator will pay an extra $35k for your house to remove a $90 electricity bill. It's all risk with no reward. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I didn't mean to suggest it was a useless debt. I'm simply saying the solar system is not free. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Well, I don't know if it was a detriment to selling price.  What I'm saying is that he had to lower the price to sell the house period.  It's possible he would've had to lower the price even more if the solar wasn't there.  I think it's impossible to say that he could've gotten the same amount, or more, if the solar wasn't there. 

That's why I'm curious about the answer, if he's able to ask the buyers at closing.  IE, did they buy the house because it had solar?  Would they have paid the same amount if the solar wasn't there?  Would they have wanted to pay less if the solar wasn't there?  This assumes the buyers are willing to answer and answer honestly of course.

He's a huge "green energy" guy and thought that he'd be able to sell the house for more money with solar.  More than what he paid for the solar in otherwords.  I was skeptical, answers are still unknown?

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I got a pretty compelling quote recently.  It looked like I would have to cover some out of pocket for the first few years on the order of $25.  Effectively finance payments were $115/month on a 25 year loan.  My electric bill is $90.

However, electric rates are going up, and Duke Energy has already announced a 16% rake hike next year.  Its fairly reasonable to assume they will exceed the cost of the solar financing very quickly.  So really what your are doing is locking in a rate more than anything, similar to a mortgage locking in your rent.
 

What am I missing here? It looks like you pay $90 a month for electricity? There is almost no reason why you should be looking at solar with that low of a bill. And they want to give you a finance payment of $115 a month? For 25 years!?! So they want you to take out a 25 year loan to raise your rate by over 25%. That works out to almost $35k over 25 years, which is a lot to offset a $90 bill. And you put yourself at risk of  having to pay it off if you sell your house. No prospective buyer with a calculator will pay an extra $35k for your house to remove a $90 electricity bill. It's all risk with no reward. 

I think what you are missing is the rising cost of electricity.  Forget that its $90.

If the rate is X, but you could lock in a rate of 1.28X for 25 years would you consider it?  Most probably wouldn't.  Historical rate increase is 1.6%/yr.  However, what if next year alone it was a 16% increase?  If rate of increase returns to normal immediately afterward, by year 7 the solar bill would be less than the std. electric bill.  By the 25 year mark it would be 75% the cost of std. electric.

In reply to docwyte :

I wouldn't expect owned solar panels bring more value at sale time than the installation cost - if they did, we'd see them slapped on absolutely every house going on the market as well as every piece of new construction. I would expect them to bring some value over a house that didn't have them. It would be really interesting to hear what the buyers had to say.

If your friend was in a bind and having to sell ASAP, it's possible he didn't fully realize the value of the array.

There's a bunch of new construction going on around here, desert homes going in where there was just desert. The complete lack of attention to the location drives me nuts - they could just as well be placed in a New England suburb, with no attempts made to manage efficiency. Giving them a roof that's well designed to take solar and paying attention to the sun could make such a difference. Apparently green homes are just not valued as long as power, gasoline and water are cheap.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

He wasn't in a bind, the house had been for sale for a few months.  It was clear that it wasn't going to sell at all unless he lowered the price.  He was getting showings but no offers.  The housing market in Bailey isn't the same as down here in the Denver suburbs....

It looks like peak solar hours in Charleston SC are the worst during December at 4.2 hours per day. January isn't much better at 4.45 hours. 

Panel system sizing is monthly electric usage divided by monthly peak sun hours, times 1000. Then divided by the power rating of the panels. 

So figure worst case @ 1000 kWh divided by the worst case peak sun at 126 hours/month is 7.93. Times 1000 is 7930. 

Then divided by 420 for 420-watt panels in the kit above, I would need 19, 420-watt panels minimum to generate enough power during the winter months. The above kit comes with 15. 

The house should use at the most about 33 kWh per day. So the 20kw battery would probably be just large enough to carry over to the next day but not have much if any extra. Some type of auxiliary charging would be necessary unless you up the system size. 

With some careful shopping, I bet I could put together a complete system that would work 95% of the time for under $25k. The system payoff would be about 13 years assuming electrical rates stay close to the same. 

For those wondering what your peak solar hours are by month, follow the link. 

https://tsi.tyconsystems.com/html/nrel_lookup.htm

Toyman! said:

It looks like peak solar hours in Charleston SC are the worst during December at 4.2 hours per day. January isn't much better at 4.45 hours. 

Panel system sizing is monthly electric usage divided by monthly peak sun hours, times 1000. Then divided by the power rating of the panels. 

So figure worst case @ 1000 kWh divided by the worst case peak sun at 126 hours/month is 7.93. Times 1000 is 7930. 

Then divided by 420 for 420-watt panels in the kit above, I would need 19, 420-watt panels minimum to generate enough power during the winter months. The above kit comes with 15. 

The house should use at the most about 33 kWh per day. So the 20kw battery would probably be just large enough to carry over to the next day but not have much if any extra. Some type of auxiliary charging would be necessary unless you up the system size. 

With some careful shopping, I bet I could put together a complete system that would work 95% of the time for under $25k. The system payoff would be about 13 years assuming electrical rates stay close to the same. 

 

 

That is a nice calculation to know.   At $19,000 was that just the components or did that include some labor?
     When my daughter and her husband did the calculation they worked for peak demand.   Living in southern Florida that was  during the peak of the summer.  With both air conditioners (ea 3&1/2 tons) running   They couldn't meet their full need with 26 panels ( all she could fit on her roof)  so she has to pay about $65-85 a month to the utility company.   Apparently the utility company gets her excess free  but gives her nothing for it.   They have a single back up battery pack but the cost of an extra  would have been more than they could justify.  

is the solar panel quality good enough to last 20-30 years and if some go bad who pays to replace them ?

Will they withstand a large hail storm ?

and what happens when you need to  put new shingles on the roof ?

The rules seem to have changed over the years of how much the Utility company pays for your extra KWs

My house is pretty small and is in shadow much of the day from the 3 story apartments next door , 

and lastly , I see talk of " Solar shingles"  that replace your regular shingles , is that something  coming soon ?

Toyman! said:

It looks like peak solar hours in Charleston SC are the worst during December at 4.2 hours per day. January isn't much better at 4.45 hours. 

Panel system sizing is monthly electric usage divided by monthly peak sun hours, times 1000. Then divided by the power rating of the panels. 

So figure worst case @ 1000 kWh divided by the worst case peak sun at 126 hours/month is 7.93. Times 1000 is 7930. 

Then divided by 420 for 420-watt panels in the kit above, I would need 19, 420-watt panels minimum to generate enough power during the winter months. The above kit comes with 15. 

The house should use at the most about 33 kWh per day. So the 20kw battery would probably be just large enough to carry over to the next day but not have much if any extra. Some type of auxiliary charging would be necessary unless you up the system size. 

With some careful shopping, I bet I could put together a complete system that would work 95% of the time for under $25k. The system payoff would be about 13 years assuming electrical rates stay close to the same. 

 

 

So our worst month is december at 2.68hr/day. We average about 1200-1500 kWh/month. 1200/84 = 14.28 * 1000 14,280. At 1500 17800. I'd need 42 420W panels. 

This is the closest kit they offer that would work for us: https://signaturesolar.com/ep-cube-energy-storage-system-all-in-one-solar-backup-power-39-6kwh/ and that is $41k with no installation. 

In the idea of DIY, could one get the battery backup and inverters and hook them up to be charged off the grid without the panels for emergency use?

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm not buying a damn tesla or ford EV. State and local allow nothing. But 42 solar panels is way more than my roof could even hold. Just shows that location is extremely important for Solar. The Federal rebate would be a one time credit on your taxes. 

Yep. Here we go again.