So my youngest dog, Lucy, at just around 2.5 years old, is going insane. She growls and generally tries to herd the older dog, Sandy (around 10 years old) around, especially when Sandy is freaked out at a thunderstorm. Yesterday Lucy bit Sandy hard, and wouldn't let go. She just got an ear, but I have two little ones (2 yrs and 8 mos) and Lucy weighs close to 80 lbs.
Anyone want a freaked out dog? Make her an outside only pet? Euthanize?
Maybe she just needs a lot more exercise. I remember reading once that some dogs that are bored start herding other pets.
When you are able to think like a dog (or a small child) the behavior of a dog doesn't seem so strange....until now.
How long have you had Lucy? What breed(s) is she? What about Sandy? Is Sandy frightened by anything else besides thunderstorms? Yeah, Lucy could be going mental, or she could be trying to help Sandy thro a rough patch.
My sister tried to "help" a dog that was going to be sent to the pound by adding it to her little family. At first the "old dog" my sister already had was indifferent to the newcomer. When the newcomer saw that the "old dog" was a pushover, she started to throw her weight around and assume top dog position. My sister reluctantly got rid of the newcomer/troublemaker.
Is Lucy really herding Sandy, or just trying to keep herself (Lucy) between you and Sandy? I had a puppy that I tried to rescue do that to what I assumed was it's littermate that I also rescued from the roadside.
In my experience with dogs (all "large,") they get a 'tude around 2 years old. Some breeds are worse than others. Bubba is 3 now and he is doing well (Rhodesian Ridgeback). He's pretty mellow, but he did go through a "don't berkeley with me, biatch" with Cheyenne, 60lbs of Black Mouth Cur. They have it pretty much worked out now. He's fast enough to do whatever he wants and she fusses at him and plays big, bad momma and he lets her. Now, Pit Bulls, when they get a 'tude on you at about 2 years old, you have a serious problem on your hands. Again, in my experience, you have to seriously put them in their place at any signs of aggression towards ANYTHING, including other animals, and especially people. Otherwise you will have a hand grenade with the pin pulled just sitting in the back yard wagging its tail. If you see a strange Pit Bull and it's wagging its tail, it isn't because it's happy to see you. It's because it's planning on biting you and thinking about how great that's going to be. And by put in their place, I don't mean a stern talking to or saying "itch" or not giving a cookie. I mean whop the E36 M3 out of them with a club if necessary so you don't hurt your hand. Yes it sounds bad and don't let the animal rights people see you do it, but what is bad is that hand grenade sitting there waiting to go off or going off and having the dog destroyed or having to destroy the dog yourself.
Anyway, my point is that with some proper discipline you should be able to work the dog through "the terrible 2's" and you can have a good family member after that. You don't have to get rid of the dog, just work with them. When you see the dog go aggressive towards the other dog (or anything else) let in to it with lots of "NO" shouting action. The dog will figure out pretty fast that you are the boss and it does not need to be challenging other dogs (or people) in the household. Really, after 2 or 3 incidents, the dog will figure it out and everything will be fine. It's just part of dog ownership.
Again go watch a few replays of the Dog Whisperer. You have two dogs fighting over being Alpha. We had the same thing going on when we brought a young but large puppy into our household with two cats and a Springer Spaniel. Oh the fights that they would have as the puppy realized that she could take the much older Springer. We came back from dinner one night to find them tied together and snarling because the collar of one dog had pierced the eye of the other?? We ended up with baby gates all the thru the house trying to keep the dogs separate. I did learn not to reach down between two 60# dogs when they are fighting.
We took the younger dog to obediance training which helped some but attacks still occurred. I really think that the younger dog could sense that the older dog had health issues and was vulnerable. One thing that the dog trainer(a very pleasant but strict Austrian lady) recommended was that you periodically take the dog out into the back yard and remind it who was the real BOSS of the yard.
What you are seeing is just nature in action but you dont need to let it play out with your young children nearby.
What the good Doc said is pretty spot on. When you see anything, you get in there and assert your dominance. Make sure that it knows that YOU are the alpha and it is never to attack anything. And you have to do it fast--you have about 2-4 seconds before the dog forgets.
As it is, you might need to get rid of it and make it clear that whoever gets it CANNOT have another dog, and has to have only mature and capable people living there--no kids, elderly, handicapped... We got a 5 year old Golden who was very much an Alpha dog--the biggest golden I have ever seen, probably about 85-90 pounds and not overweight. We tried to introduce him to Duke, our neighbors dog. We like Duke, have watched him numerous times. But Duke is an Alpha, and just as big as Ralph. We had them on leashes, but the meeting didn't go well. They aren't friends, and we have to keep them apart. You definitely need to worry about the kids, but some of it might also be dog vs dog dominance.
tuna55 wrote: She growls and generally tries to herd the older dog, Sandy (around 10 years old) around, especially when Sandy is freaked out at a thunderstorm.
Sandy is an unstable dog. The other dog sees this and is trying to take control. Dog Whisperer 101.
I'd have to see the rest of the dynamic of the family to see if Sandy isn't seeing any other leadership. I have an unstable thunderstorm dog also. The other 2 do not attack this dog. I am the pack leader. They know I've got things under control. Do you ignore the thunderstorm activity or do you coddle Sandy and take pity on her? If it's the latter, you are feeding the negativity.
Several solutions, but euthanizing is not warranted.
OK: Lots of stuff to read and to say.
I am totally the alpha. I have no issue letting either dog have it when they deserve it. I understand that Sandy is typically the "unstable dog" per the thunderstorm stuff, but she's totally tolerant of everyone, just scared, during the whole experience. We nearly always crate her during these times.
As far as the dog vs dog stuff, Sandy lost that fight a long time ago, like a year ago. That isn't the issue, Sandy has NEVER tried to assert herself at all, not even when Lucy weighed 10 lbs.
Sandy is a chow/german shepard mix. Despite those two breeds histories', she is really sweet. She's great with the kids, and the thunderstorm thing has always been there. She has a history. I don't know what it is. She stopped by my parents house five years ago when I was just moving out in central New York and wouldn't leave. We built her a dog house (insulated - winters are tough and my parents wouldn't have her inside) and showed it to her, brought her inside after realizing that she wasn't going anywhere. To get her to use it at all, we needed to put it (huge and heavy, by the way) ON the front steps. We moved it away a little at a time until it was finally off of the front lawn. We didn't even put her on a leash, she was that good of a dog. She moved down with us to South Carolina. Hung out in the back seat of a Civic during long roadtrips with no problem, etc.
I ignore her or crate her during thunderstorms. Never coddling. I promise, I am not a coddler. If I am around and Lucy gets in Sandy's face, she gets a swat. Not one of the swats intended for the kids behind, but a swat. I want a whimper, dogs are strong.
Lucy is the opposite. She's a SPCA special. My wife's dog, really. She was the runt of her litter. She's collie/lab, so the herding thing isn't that new, but it's never been aggressive before. She has really bad hips. Before her medicine, she was always in pain but now we have it under control. It's only Sandy that gets her goat.
Now for the new news. The Nanny noticed that Lucy would go and bark at Sandy (while she was in the crate!) today immediately after Christopher (our 8 month old) cried. Even though he was upstairs in his crib. Freaky. So for some reason Lucy feels like she's protecting the kid. Sounds great until she thinks my older son is the problem. He's 2 and under 30 lbs.
Trust me, I am very protective of the kids. Whenever they scare the kids, get playing too rough near the kids, etc, they get a talking to.
Now for the 'bad owner' part. We are a family with two kids, two dogs and a cat. She works part time and is taking classes for her masters degree. I work full time and travel too much (although less lately) and get to take care of everything during the masters degree thing while I job search like a madman. We don't walk the dogs. We have a fenced in area for them to play in, and we try to let them out to play in the yard with us twice or so a week. Lucy's really not supposed to walk more than a mile or so at a time anyway, due to her hips. Mostly because she's a total idiot Collie at heart, once when playing fetch in the snow, her legs fell out from under her, both back legs. What does she do? Proceed to drag herself the rest of the across the yard with the stupid toy in her mouth with her front legs only.
I don't really have any good advice for you as I'm a brand new dog owner myself, but I hope things work out for everyone.
Dogs that appear to go insane during storms tend to be an indication of cancer or brain tumors. The change in pressure causes swelling in the brain and the increase pressure from the tumor causes great changes in personality. Sadly there isn't much you can do. I've had one that was like this, he was a very calm dog, never chewed anything, not even toys. But during thunder storms he would constantly try and chew his way out of where ever he was, even when he could simply walk around the wall. The last straw was when we came home and he had chewed through a glass door, and then went outside, into the basement and chewed through a metal vent and got stuck. He was covered in his own blood and all cut up. It didn't get to that level over night, it took about 4 years or so. He never got aggressive to us, but when he was insane we could not calm his shaking and did not respond to commands well.
Stop the aggressive behaviour between your two dogs. Don't let them bark at each other, "eyeball" each other, play rough with each other, take each other's toys, etc. No confrontation at all.
Put your foot down as you have done before, and a good job by the sound of it, and do it consistently. Have other family members do the same thing when you're not around. If you have a house keeper and she's uncomfortable performing this, crate both dogs away from each other until you can be home to supervise. From here on out, no posturing or aggression - ever.
Give it 2 - 3 weeks of this and let us know how it goes.
Watching the Dog Whisperer is good advice as well. That guy knows his stuff.
Thanks for the advice, folks.
Also, I didn't realize how much innuendo could have possibly been built into the title of this thread. My apologies to those who came here thinking about... ::ahem:: that.
tuna55 wrote: Thanks for the advice, folks. Also, I didn't realize how much innuendo could have possibly been built into the title of this thread. My apologies to those who came here thinking about... ::ahem:: that.
raises hand
Seriously, anyone who thinks they can get a border collie, austrailian heeler, huskie, etc. and not walk them is just asking for issues. If you buy a dog that is a working dog, they need a lot of exercise, like you get on the bike and ride around 5 miles while the dog keeps up type of exercise. If you don't properly exercise a working breed they will become neurotic. Dogs need lots of exercise, which is a good impetus to getting one, but if you don't properly exercise the dog problems will follow.
^^ This. Especially these small- to mid-size shepherd breeds of working dogs seem especially susceptible to that particular breed of neurosis that comes from insufficient exercise. I'm willing to bet that if you start really working her out, everything will fall into place.
Well we can't really let Lucy exercise because of her hips, vet says less than 1/2 mile per day. The potential is there to let Sandy walk, but it's tough with the kids to find that kind of time.
DILYSI Dave wrote:tuna55 wrote: Thanks for the advice, folks. Also, I didn't realize how much innuendo could have possibly been built into the title of this thread. My apologies to those who came here thinking about... ::ahem:: that.raises hand
Yeah, I screwed that up. I saw my thread, and went, aww, who can't get doggie anymore?
I asked my dog for his advice, and this was his response.
Sorry I couldn't be more help.
If Lucy's hips are that bad, I would have her put down
The constant pain + lack of exercise will make her neurotic.
benzbaron wrote: Seriously, anyone who thinks they can get a border collie, austrailian heeler, huskie, etc. and not walk them is just asking for issues. If you buy a dog that is a working dog, they need a lot of exercise, like you get on the bike and ride around 5 miles while the dog keeps up type of exercise. If you don't properly exercise a working breed they will become neurotic. Dogs need lots of exercise, which is a good impetus to getting one, but if you don't properly exercise the dog problems will follow.
Quoted because of incredible amounts of genius in the post. I tend to adopt based on personality moreso than breed. So I have a Border Collie mix and a purebred Australian Shepherd in my house. We repeat this mantra regularly: No more herding breeds!
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