MG_Bryan wrote: Suggesting enlisting is "signing up to be sacrificed" is pretty demeaning and not a very well thought out statement, and just so you know, recruitment goals are more than fulfilled for quite some time.
I have nothing but respect for the people that enlist, but I can't say that for the last couple administrations that don't seem to attach much value to the young lives that they are ending at an alarming rate.
DILYSI Dave wrote:Cone_Junky wrote:Copy. What should they be taxed at?DILYSI Dave wrote:They(1%) are only being taxed at 15-20% while we pay 30-40% in taxes. Actually as high as 50% according to you.Cone_Junky wrote: 15%-20%They should be able to keep 15-20%, or they should be taxed 15-20%?
I don't know the answer to what we should be taxed at but it should the same rate no matter the income level.
Here's my list:
I grew up poor.
I did well in school and got scholarships. The government gave me plenty of free money in the form of grants. With these and my scholarships, I was getting paid to go to a pretty good school (Clemson.)
I also "signed up to be sacrificed" in the National Guard while I was a junior at said school.
I've been a productive member of society, and paid taxes and such and done other somewhat productive things.
I'm going back to school soon for a PhD. Gotta love that post 911 GI bill. I'll have a doctorate and no debt.
I wasn't a moron and didn't incur tons of debt to get a relatively useless degree. Maybe if more people used some common sense and did what they needed to do to get where they wanted to be, this country would be a better place.
rotard wrote: Here's my list: I grew up poor. I did well in school and got scholarships. The government gave me plenty of free money in the form of grants. With these and my scholarships, I was getting paid to go to a pretty good school (Clemson.) I also "signed up to be sacrificed" in the National Guard while I was a junior at said school. I've been a productive member of society, and paid taxes and such and done other somewhat productive things. I'm going back to school soon for a PhD. Gotta love that post 911 GI bill. I'll have a doctorate and no debt. I wasn't a moron and didn't incur tons of debt to get a relatively useless degree. Maybe if more people used some common sense and did what they needed to do to get where they wanted to be, this country would be a better place.
Yes. But you got all those advantages because of "entitlements". I am glad you did and hope that many others are given the same opportunity. But according to the general thinking in this thread you are a tax-taker and a leach off our system.
Thank you for your service and I feel you deserve all the helping hands you got. Now let's keep those helping hands for generations to come.
Cone_Junky wrote:rotard wrote: Here's my list: I grew up poor. I did well in school and got scholarships. The government gave me plenty of free money in the form of grants. With these and my scholarships, I was getting paid to go to a pretty good school (Clemson.) I also "signed up to be sacrificed" in the National Guard while I was a junior at said school. I've been a productive member of society, and paid taxes and such and done other somewhat productive things. I'm going back to school soon for a PhD. Gotta love that post 911 GI bill. I'll have a doctorate and no debt. I wasn't a moron and didn't incur tons of debt to get a relatively useless degree. Maybe if more people used some common sense and did what they needed to do to get where they wanted to be, this country would be a better place.Yes. But you got all those advantages because of "entitlements". I am glad you did and hope that many others are given the same opportunity. But according to the general thinking in this thread you are a tax-taker and a leach off our system. Thank you for your service and I feel you deserve all the helping hands you got. Now let's keep those helping hands for generations to come.
I've also become a productive member of society because of those helping hands. If I can use them, anyone can. As a result, I've also been able to pay more in taxes than most of the people in this thread. At least until I'm a student again, haha.
I dont see the GI bill as an entitlement or taxtaking, its extra pay for service and to encourage education. he paid for the benefit by serving.
this guy also proves that we, as a nation, are giving free education thru grants and scholarships to those willing to do some work to get it. the work being filling out forms and jumping thru hoops, ect. work= something these protesters know nothing about.
I cant believe all the rhetoric about higher education should be free with no comments on how we should fix the public schools (pre college) first. tons of what college is teaching should have been taught before they got out of high school.
I agree that our government has been sold to the highest bidder, but protesting the high-bidder and not the government doesnt make sense.
Cone_Junky wrote: Yes. But you got all those advantages because of "entitlements". I am glad you did and hope that many others are given the same opportunity. But according to the general thinking in this thread you are a tax-taker and a leach off our system. Thank you for your service and I feel you deserve all the helping hands you got. Now let's keep those helping hands for generations to come.
It isn't entitlements. He worked in order to earn those things.
GI bill is earned. Scholarships are earned.
Grants are given due to low income and is "free money".
Of course I am a crazy, pinko, socialist because I believe that any American born citizen with a Social Security number should have healthcare and a good education. Maybe not a Private University(the rich still get some benefits), but community college and state colleges should be a given. I also have no problem with a mandatory community service when you become an adult. Military, CCC, social services, gov't labor, etc.
For the people, by the people...
Cone_Junky wrote: GI bill is earned. Scholarships are earned. Grants are given due to low income and is "free money". Of course I am a crazy, pinko, socialist because I believe that any American born citizen with a Social Security number should have healthcare and a good education. Maybe not a Private University(the rich still get some benefits), but community college and state colleges should be a given. I also have no problem with a mandatory community service when you become an adult. Military, CCC, social services, gov't labor, etc. For the people, by the people...
Any American can have healthcare all they have to do is pay for their own. Any American can get a good education all they have to do is study.
Edit to add that you don't even have to pay up front for health care and can work out payment plans with health providers.
As someone who I'm certain comes across as a conservative I will reach to a Democrat to sum it up for me. A democrat who, while beloved by many of his party, sounds an awful lot like a modern day conservative if you listen to some of what he has to say, for instance:
"Let every nation know... that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
"For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed."
"...let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own."
But those tidbits aside, probably his most quoted and a good summation of how I feel about all those who feel entitled to something...
"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"
Instead of whining how the government has failed you and not your parents. Get up off your butts and do something. If the kids have parents who are willing to support them as they spend their time protesting then good for them, but I feel no empathy for them. My parents couldn't do that, and it made me a better person. If you live at a standard at which you can afford to not work, no matter who is picking up the tab, and you believe so strongly that all people are entitled to better then use this time to go out there and try to make things better, volunteer at a soup kitchen, go build houses with habitat, do something, be productive, don't have a little camp out in the city and pretend the world is so terrible because you refuse to work "below" your qualifications.
JThw8 wrote: "Let every nation know... that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty." Pay any price? Bear any burden? Support any friend? assure the success of liberty? ...Take care of our citizens and educate them "For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed." ..Our military already seems to have that covered. "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country" Pay taxes to help our great nation Instead of whining how the government has failed you and not your parents. Get up off your butts and do something. Like organize and protest?
See what I did there?
Josh wrote: The problem right now is that Wall Street has all the money and the government in their pockets, and for all the talk about "producers", they just FLAT OUT AREN'T PRODUCING. Instead of growing businesses, opening factories, creating goods, lending money to build buildings, advancing technology, and HIRING ALL THE READILY AVAILABLE LABOR THAT'S NEVER GOING TO BE HUNGRIER OR CHEAPER, banks and corporations are mostly just hoarding, and doing all they can to suck off the government teat. This is obviously working out great for them, so why would they bother to make the system work properly again? The dow is up almost 80% from 2009. Bank profits are at record highs. So why the berkeley is everyone still out of work!?!
this i don't understand. i'm not quite 30 yet, but they weren't teaching us in school that because i somehow managed to come up with a product, bring it to market, sell it and manage to have enough left over to pay myself after everyone else, that i'm somehow obligated to go hire people i don't need because all of these people somehow did me a favor by buying my product. I run my company, I get to decide whether or not I hire any new employees, or open a new factory. it is not somehow my obligation to sacrifice my hard earned business and savings to help people who seem disinclined to help themselves and would rather bitch about what they haven't been given instead of just going out and getting it for themself.
Cone_Junky wrote:JThw8 wrote: "Let every nation know... that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty." Pay any price? Bear any burden? Support any friend? assure the success of liberty? ...Take care of our citizens and educate them "For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed." ..Our military already seems to have that covered. "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country" Pay taxes to help our great nation Instead of whining how the government has failed you and not your parents. Get up off your butts and do something. Like organize and protest?See what I did there?
See what you did? Yes, mis-interpreted one of the "revered" members of the history of the Democratic party. My point in the first 3 quotes was merely that the Democratic party has strayed from what it used to believe, its very off topic and the general point is that political parties generally change with the whims of what will get them re-elected which is why I dont subscribe to any of them.
Sorry, I don't see the protesters being productive. Camping out in a city is not productive, it's a drain on resources and not adding to them. Of course we don't see eye to eye on this and I don't expect you to change your mind on it, at least not for the next 10-20 years. I certainly see their point, and I'm willing to bet that at least 1 in 10 of them could intelligently articulate that point if asked. But sadly the idea of protest has to many become "cool" or "hip" or whatever and too many of them look like they are there for the party. If they want to make a change then make a change, don't complain that one needs to happen. Go out and find political candidates who share your beliefs and campaign for them. Right now they might as well be out there trying to inform the world that the sky is blue. We know the problems, so you aren't educating us. What we need are solutions, how about putting some of this misguided energy into that front. A wise man once told me never point out a problem to me unless you are bringing an idea for a solution. It doesn't have to be the right idea or the best idea, but don't point out problems without at least an idea solution and the willingness to act upon that idea. That philosophy has served me very well in life.
JThw8 wrote: A wise man once told me never point out a problem to me unless you are bringing an idea for a solution. It doesn't have to be the right idea or the best idea, but don't point out problems without at least an idea solution and the willingness to act upon that idea. That philosophy has served me very well in life.
well said!
Xceler8x wrote: If this is a problem with our education system then why denigrate the protesters? Sounds you agree that they were sold a bill of goods that didn't pan out. If a social contract is broken you will have a backlash.
Because it's been like that for berkeleying decades, this isn't some new thing that just popped up. If I buy an old british sportscar I can't exactly act surprised when the wiring takes a E36 M3, now can I?
Xceler8x wrote: Also, do you have any data to back up your claim about computing as a field being flooded? I'd like to see them if you don't mind. I'm very familiar with that field so I may be able to offer some insider views. For SCIENCE of course.
I've already got insiders, so no thanks. This is coming from my brother in law and his father and their freinds, they're all programmers, general consensus seems to be that not only are decent jobs hard to find but the chances of you getting bumped out in a few years for a fresh out of college student who will work for less pay is fairly high.
Xceler8x wrote: I think it's great you've familiarized yourself with the current climate of jobs for a college graduate. Where did you go to school? I'm sure you're a recent grad because you're speaking from experience right? What year did you graduate?
Me? Dropped out of HS in early 04, got my GED a month later, got a few jobs, hurt my knee, squatted in a condemed building for a while, took advantage of the lack of hatred my mother has for me, got around to getting a settlement and getting my knee "fixed" I've been doing side work for cash til I figure out what exactly I can do.
Course, that doesn't really matter much, the job market isn't much different for a dropout as a college grad. There are two categories, E36 M3 work, and stuff you'll do, the more those categories overlap the better off you are. When I was actively looking for work I never once had an issue getting and holding a job, even when I was wearing the same few pairs of clothes and showering in a truck stop.
Forgive any errors in my post, as a buddy brought over beer and it would have been rude to not help him get rid of it.
Pretty funny watching the protesters on tv. Starbucks in one hand, iPhone or iPad in the other. Most were smoking cigarettes. Yep, you got it rough bro...
93EXCivic wrote:DILYSI Dave wrote:I don't know the answer to what we should be taxed at but it should the same rate no matter the income level.Cone_Junky wrote:Copy. What should they be taxed at?DILYSI Dave wrote:They(1%) are only being taxed at 15-20% while we pay 30-40% in taxes. Actually as high as 50% according to you.Cone_Junky wrote: 15%-20%They should be able to keep 15-20%, or they should be taxed 15-20%?
It's good to see that you acknowledge every one should pay their fair share. That would include those that pay nothing like about 50% of wage earners, right?
Or would you like to see the EPA expanded to version 2.0; the Entitlement Protection Agency?
Make your case because it's a tough sell to demand those that shoulder the burden carry a bigger load and those that take the spoils don't have to make any contribution either.
oldsaw wrote: It's good to see that you acknowledge every one should pay their fair share. That would include those that pay nothing like about 50% of wage earners, right?
That will never happen. The democrats have been buying those votes for too long. As long as people are willing to sell their vote for a handout, elections will be for sale.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I never understand this logic. Not to make an example, but i don't understand the need to lash out against a group just because you'll never be part of said group.
I think it's safe to say that fairness is something that our country believes in. Therefore if we believe in fairness when the economy rises we believe that everyone should benefit from it as we all contribute. I'll post a graph below showing how the 1% have benefited the most to the detriment of the rest of the country. That economic growth you heard about but never saw? Yeah, they got it all. Isn't this country for all Americans as opposed to the richest 1% of Americans?
JThw8 wrote: Ok, so they aren't collecting unemployment, they dont have trust funds or parents paying their way um are they stealing those laptops? The food they eat? The clothes on their backs? My point is the money is coming from somewhere and more often than not I'd guess its coming from the govt, unless they are rich. Point is I dont know their situation, nor do I care, if they want a job I have some yardwork that could be done. Beneath them? See my previous comment on the subject. For the record, I dont have a degree, the only thing the government ever gave me was 3 hots and a cot and I worked my ass off for them to get it. I have not succeeded in life because I was given anything, instead I went out and worked for what I wanted. Starting with the "do you want fries with that" and ending up as night manager of the restaurant before the end of my senior year of HS, not because anyone gave me anything, because I worked my ass off for it. I get that times are hard, and I am not criticizing anyone who has fallen on hard times, but there is always work to be done and your degrees dont make you too good to do it. The concept of "entry level" seems to be lost on too many people these days. Sometimes entry level is not even in your field, but if you get lucky maybe you can get a mailroom job at that company that does what you want, get in the door, prove yourself, WORK your way up. I have no sympathy for anyone who's complaint in life is that the government isnt giving them what they "deserve". A large portion of the problem with our government is they spend too much time trying to give people things rather than get them off their butts.
You're right man! People should work whatever job they can. If you want to be in computing start at the helpdesk. Work your way up and do it! Social mobility is possible in most jobs. Social mobility for any one of us to be in the 1% isn't as possible as it once was sadly. But in the workplace you can progress assuming proper factors on the job.
The point of Occupy isn't to say "The gubment need to come in and save me!" They aren't asking for that. All these people want is a job and a piece of the rising prosperity of America. If you check out the graph I posted above you'll see that anyone outside of the 1% has not had a significant rise in prosperity in 10 years. The 1% has taken it all. Shouldn't everyone benefit from the financial prosperity of America? I think so. Especially if they're like me - working 40+ a week, paying their bills, doing everything right. Why should we run in place while the 1% win the marathon with the help of our government?
aggravator wrote: idiots, i tell you, this country if full of idiots. they cant even protest the right people/places. the gov is at fault here and they protest the banks? upset that they dont have any money but would rather protest than get a job. F'n morons.
Actually, it's a protest designed to gain the support of our government who has abandoned us to the tender mercies of greedy banks and corps. While the protest is at Wall St. it's not just about Wall St. Although if you dismiss the protesters that's a convenient reason for it. Assuming you brush aside all logic and dialogue. But hey, bury your head in the sand all you want.
Josh wrote: ... banks and corporations are mostly just hoarding, and doing all they can to suck off the government teat. This is obviously working out great for them, so why would they bother to make the system work properly again? The dow is up almost 80% from 2009. Bank profits are at record highs. So why the berkeley is everyone still out of work!?!
The type of welfare no one ever complains about. Preach on Rev Josh!
ThePhranc wrote: Any American can have healthcare all they have to do is pay for their own. Any American can get a good education all they have to do is study. Edit to add that you don't even have to pay up front for health care and can work out payment plans with health providers.
..and for all of this you need money. God help you trying to go to college if you're just above the line marked "poor" by scholarship programs.
Grizz wrote: Forgive any errors in my post, as a buddy brought over beer and it would have been rude to not help him get rid of it.
You're correct. That would've been rude. I commend your generosity.
My point being you're talking about stuff you haven't experienced. You're not a college grad speaking about how easy it is for college grads to find jobs. That's one example. But you admit that you're experience is different than theirs. This is admirable of you. You realize that these people have a different life experience. This is why they're protesting. They haven't suffered as you have but do feel that the current system is unfair and therefore un-American.
These protesters are protesting for your bum knee (lack of healthcare), for your E36 M3 jobs you've had to do (lack of ready training), and for your unemployment problems (lagging prosperity for anyone but the 1%). They're trying to help. They aren't trying to make things harder for the 99%.
oldsaw wrote: It's good to see that you acknowledge every one should pay their fair share. That would include those that pay nothing like about 50% of wage earners, right?
So you're saying 50% of wage earners aren't paying taxes? Got a link to the data to back that up? Without hard data confirming that it's just a fart in a stiff wind.
Xceler8x wrote:oldsaw wrote: It's good to see that you acknowledge every one should pay their fair share. That would include those that pay nothing like about 50% of wage earners, right?So you're saying 50% of wage earners aren't paying taxes? Got a link to the data to back that up? Without hard data confirming that it's just a fart in a stiff wind.
That statement as it sits isn't correct.... however....
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0
Been fairly common knowledge for awhile, unfortunately most don't put the necessary qualifiers in the statement, those being "federal" and "income."
Thanks for the link 92CelicaHalfTrac. (Man, can you get a shorter login so I can type your name easier?!) 
Btw - found a photo shoot of the Occupy area in NYC. Here's the link.
But don't sweat it. Just a bunch of stinky hippies raising a ruckus about nothing.
Just human excrement and a destroyed park. It was horrible. Like a bombed out crater. <- sarcasm.
Not a big gathering at all so feel free to ignore.
In reply to Xceler8x:
i will counter this table: 
with this one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/US_Historical_Inflation.svg/800px-US_Historical_Inflation.svg.png
i can only guess that the chart you posted is corrected for inflation, as when it shows the average compensation levelling off is when there are sustained high levels of inflation with long periods of low-moderate inflation in between.
You can just call me "man," dude.
93EXCivic wrote: I just don't understand why they are protesting on Wall Street rather then Capital Hill. I mean it is the politicians who made a tax system which berkeleys over the middle class and have driven us deep in to debt and provides a poor education system and gives lots of money bail out banks who then gave bonuses to the CEOs and prop up the lazy asses who bum off the government rather then working and I could go.
I don't know what the rules are for camping out on Capitol hill, but I am impressed at the luck that these kids had in picking the only park in NYC that doesn't close at midnight. Had this been any other park at midnight on the first day the police could have gone in and locked everyone up and ended the protest. This park that the happened to wind up in is privatly owned, and in part of an old aggrement with the city council must remain open and accessible 24/7.
Xceler8x wrote: The point of Occupy isn't to say "The gubment need to come in and save me!" They aren't asking for that. All these people want is a job and a piece of the rising prosperity of America. If you check out the graph I posted above you'll see that anyone outside of the 1% has not had a significant rise in prosperity in 10 years. The 1% has taken it all. Shouldn't everyone benefit from the financial prosperity of America? I think so. Especially if they're like me - working 40+ a week, paying their bills, doing everything right. Why should we run in place while the 1% win the marathon with the help of our government?
Have you spoken to any of them? I took a walk by one my way to work. Our office is a few short blocks from there,and we have many openings, both professional (Lawyers hr, accounting eng ect) and labor. Most of these kids are not interested. They want their bills forgiven so they can follow their calling with being burdened with the cost of reality. Several that I spoke to quit jobs to join this movement to bring about their socialist paradise. They also want some more pot and. condoms.
Meanwhile I had to laugh at some of this article. http://www.observer.com/2011/10/more-money-more-problems-how-occupy-wall-street-is-really-funded/
They've appoined a CFO, rented some space for a conferance room and are looking to rent some downtown apartments for the leadership to live in.
Xceler8x wrote:oldsaw wrote: It's good to see that you acknowledge every one should pay their fair share. That would include those that pay nothing like about 50% of wage earners, right?So you're saying 50% of wage earners aren't paying taxes? Got a link to the data to back that up? Without hard data confirming that it's just a fart in a stiff wind.
X, if you go back and read the exchanges between Cone_Junky and Dylisi Dave, you'll see the context specifically targets federal income taxes.
I never contend(ed) that 50% don't pay taxes of some sort. Cone-Junky asserted that the federal income tax "should the same rate no matter the income level." and I was requesting clarification.
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