Official 2018 Indy 500 Discussion

Helio fastest?

Danica in top 9?

Hinchcliffe bumped?

And I can’t go?   

Can we take a moment to talk about how bad ABC's coverage of qualifying was? I know it stands for "Always Broadcasting Commercials", but man, it was really excessive today. And poorly timed. Can't wait for NBC to get the whole series next year.

It was a shame that Hinch never got another chance after he had that vibration. It seemed pretty clear that Pippa didn't have the speed, it's unfortunate that she took the last bit of track time that he could have used, but hey, those are the breaks. She had just as much right to another chance that he did. And, unlike Hinch, she doesn't have a car owner/sponsor who will write a check to get him into the field in another car that already qualified.

Indy's rule has always been that it's the car that qualifies, not the driver, so it's not uncommon for bumped drivers (or drivers with other commitments, like back when Mario had F1 conflicts) to drive a car they didn't qualify.  If so, they start from the back of the field.  I expect Hinch to be in the field on race day, his sponsors will foot the bill.  Loved how gracious he was about the whole thing, though, a real credit to the sport.  When I hit the Colorado lottery, he can drive for me any day.

Go that way, really, really fast... when you can't go that way any farther, turn left....

Tom_Spangler said:

Can we take a moment to talk about how bad ABC's coverage of qualifying was? I know it stands for "Always Broadcasting Commercials", but man, it was really excessive today. And poorly timed. Can't wait for NBC to get the whole series next year.

It was a shame that Hinch never got another chance after he had that vibration. It seemed pretty clear that Pippa didn't have the speed, it's unfortunate that she took the last bit of track time that he could have used, but hey, those are the breaks. She had just as much right to another chance that he did. And, unlike Hinch, she doesn't have a car owner/sponsor who will write a check to get him into the field in another car that already qualified.

The odd conversation I saw last night was whether they keep the field at 33 or expand to 35.  

So for the first time in many years, there are enough cars to make bumping possible and compelling, and now thanks to the driver who got bumped, they want to take that drama away.  That kind of sucks to me.

Now that it's been 24 years, nobody seems to remember that the entire Penske team didn't qualufy in 1994.  The historically top team with the superstar drivers, nada.  Or when Bobby Rahal experimented with a car, and didn't qualify- another former winner didn't make it.  No- don't open the field up.

Pippa's struggle is PART OF INDY.  To so many in the world, this is the ONLY race they can afford to run, and they put everything they have at it.  And sometimes that fails.  Let it happen.  I do wish there were other sponsor/series opportunities for these one timers so that they could put a more competitive package together for the one race.  And you can see that many are able to put a decent car together.  But in the end, someone has to get bumped, and this year, it was Pippa Mann.  

On that note, given this was the only race all season Mann was going to run, there's no way in hell she should give up her chance.  Hinch gets the rest of the season- this is it for her, her team, and her sponsors.  Don't throw away your shot.

In reply to alfadriver :

I think it was 95? But yeah, it was the year after they dominated with their "stock block" high-boost Ilmor engine, which had apparently covered up a lot of deficiencies in their chassis. They actually went and got Little Al's race-winner out of the museum and tried to qualify it, unsuccessfully.

1000% agreed on not expanding the field. That would be a terrible idea. Let Hinch buy his way in like so many before him.

Back in the days when the 500 was much more of a month long spectacle, Bump Day was extremely tense. You never knew what might happen and just making it into the field was a huge victory for many teams. I miss those days. It should not be as easy as just showing up to make it into the Indy 500.

Hinch was probably really nervous about his first quali laps, which was the first go after the rain delay.  They probably regret not getting in the fast lane way earlier.

ncjay said:

Back in the days when the 500 was much more of a month long spectacle.............

One of my favorite stories from "They call me Mr. 500" - Andy Grantelli driving his race car down from Chicago to race it.  

Born March 18, 1923 in Dallas but raised in Chicago, Granatelli already was a force by the mid-1940s with the opening of a thriving speed shop on Chicago's north side in collaboration with his older brother Joe and younger brother Vince. Grancor (for Granatelli Corporation) equipment became legendary in the hot rod world, leading the brothers to seek further notoriety by entering a Grancor-sponsored car in the 1946 "500."

Having obtained one of the 10 aesthetically pleasing but less-than-successful Ford V8 Miller entries built for the 1935 "500" by Harry Miller for Edsel Ford and team manager Preston Tucker, the Granatellis installed a Mercury V8 outfitted with a Grancor head, hung headlights and license plates on the car and then proceeded to drive it down from Chicago.

Driven by Danny Kladis, the car qualified for the 33rd position and was rolling along steadily when Kladis lost power in Turn 2 immediately following a pit stop on Lap 46. After the car was towed through the infield and back to the garage area, Andy realized that the fuel switch - turned off during the stop for safety reasons - had not been turned back on. When the car came out to the pit gate, engine running once again, officials would not allow it though, ruling that the car had "left the race course" and was therefore out.

God damn ABC is crap.  So many ads then coming back to on track action when peoples runs are half way done.

Have you notice some people are staying in 6th, some dropping to 5th for the head wind and some seems to be geared long and are using 4th and 5th?  Zach Claman DeMelo was using 4th and 5th and did very well comparatively.

Wow, Rossi had a rough ride with the tail wind.

Now after another 30 mins of ads we get to the fast 9.

Looks like the fast guys are running negative angle on the rear wing.

Fast lap from Newgarden

Wow, amazing lap from Will Power, that will be tough to beat.  Noticeably more wing and all laps over 228 while using very little road.  So so smooth.

EDIT, so I was wrong, that didn't last long!! 

Adrian_Thompson said:

Now after another 30 mins of ads we get to the fast 9.

But, it looks like they were just cramming all the commercials in before the fast nine to run it commercial free, which I'm OK with.  Wondering if one of them will touch a 230 lap....

-Rob

In reply to rob_lewis :

Good call, one driver hit 230, and sits on the pole. 

I hope they don’t expand the field. Growing up watching the suspense of who would be bumped was as often as exciting as the race itself.

Thought Pag had it in the bag when I tuned in.  Glad Carpenter got it, hope he can get 1st win. Really thought Helio would have something, like to see him get #4 tho.

It would be funnier if The Captain had “The Captain” monogrammed on his shirts.  

Maybe even a Greek fishing cap?

Datsun310Guy said:

One of my favorite stories from "They call me Mr. 500" - Andy Grantelli driving his race car down from Chicago to race it.  

There's an article in the current issue of Hot Rod magazine about a former Indy car that's currently licensed for the street in Washington state:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/street-driven-indy-car-turns-heads-seattle/

Awesome run by Ed Carpinter.  I'm not a massive fan of his, but you have to hand it to him, he knows his way around the Brickyard.

I don't think they'll expand the grid.  Following all the talk in various places, it looks like Connor Daly's ride may be the only option for SPM to buy out for Hinch.

How is it when you have a spec racer,that the speeds vary so much ?    Does the driver push the pedal a tic longer ?   Will Power said he had his car trimmed out as far as he could and still not fast enough.

There was some talk about the new car not being as raceable at high speed.     Ed Carpenter said  there was noise in the car at 230 mph.

 Comments ?

iceracer said:

How is it when you have a spec racer,that the speeds vary so much ?    Does the driver push the pedal a tic longer ?   Will Power said he had his car trimmed out as far as he could and still not fast enough.

There was some talk about the new car not being as raceable at high speed.     Ed Carpenter said  there was noise in the car at 230 mph.

 Comments ?

No offense, but this is why I find it so frustrating when people blindly say 'it's easy, it's a spec series'  The kit of parts to build the car may be the same, but there are an infinite number of ways to assemble and set up the car, plus the difference in drivers and driving styles.

If were were to assume that all the cars were exactly equal and all the drivers had exactly the same skill and driving style just the power to go from 224 to 230mph is massive.  As just about every one knows, drag Vs speed isn't linear, The power needed squares for a doubling of speed.  Assuming the cars are bricks, they are super draggy, and more so this year with the new body.  You need something like 50-60 extra hp to make that extra 6mph.  I say approx because I'm guessing at frag and frontal area.

Let's still leave car set up and aero out of it.  You can use different lubrication in both the engine and trans, that's friction through power loss.  Then you can choose your gearing.  Watching qualifications yesterday I noticed some drivers using 4th and 5th, some using 5th and 6th and some using 6th only.  The way they are geared for Superspeedways there may only be a drop of 250rpm between the upper gears, notice they are probably well over 100mph before changing up to 2nd.  

Then there are dampers.  They are free in the series.  Penske supposedly has a full department doing nothing but build and set up dampers just for his Indy car team, that's 3-4 people 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year, that is nothing, zip zero nadda to do with what is sold to the other racers as 'Penske shocks' BTW.  Even some of the smaller teams like Dale Coyne have two people, one full time, one doing other things just on dampers.

Then there are the corners and uprights.  That's another full time job building and setting up those components for perfect run out, minimal friction etc.

Then there is the basic bodywork.  The top teams have a dedicated chassis for Indy, often a new one that's been in build since January.  Every single panel, plate, wing etc. plus spares for the months is carefully trimmed and fitted so it's perfect with minimal airflow disruption at joins.  Paint finish, wrap finish and seams, even sponsor decal thickness, placement and edges are critical.  Drag is everything.

We haven't even got to track side variables and set up yet.

There are the basics, roll center, center of pressure, rake, stagger, springs and bar rates, pre load, weight jacking etc.  From the talk this year, the cars get a massive tow with the more drag in traffic, but the downside is they are hyper critical to front end wash out when getting within even 20 car lengths which makes running in a pack hard so they have spent way more time than any of the teams expected working on front end mechanical grip.

Next we have the aero tuning elements.  Different front adn rear wing angles and set up (note, many of the fast guys are running negative angle of attack on the rear), plus elements, plates and boards that can legally be swapped, removed or used in different variations.

Finally there's the track.  Ambient air temp and pressure, track surface temp.  Wind direction etc.

Perhaps a better questions is 'Wow, how are they so close that fastest to slowest is covered by 5.189mph, or as it's a 4 lap average 3.625 seconds over 10 miles.  Breaking that down further that's 0.3625 seconds per mile.  Seems really freaking close to me.

Edit Opps, I forgot.  The wind was changing direction and speed throughout even the fast 9, let alone the full 33.  Head winds car slow you down but make the car more planted, tail winds car speed you up but loose balance on corner entry.  It doesn't cancel itself down and the main start finish straight grandstands can block wind or stall it, also it was blowing at difference times towards turn 1, then a few seconds later towards turn 2.  

After all that you have driver style and the line they choose.  Some were traveling a shorter smoother line and not using the full run out, others were fast and tracking out further but then traveling a longer distance.

Honestly this is the barest hint at the start of the list of what can be changed and I've already driveled on too long.

Adrian_Thompson said:

I don't think they'll expand the grid.  Following all the talk in various places, it looks like Connor Daly's ride may be the only option for SPM to buy out for Hinch.

Daly has some strong backing in the Indycar offices, even if he lacks the funding that some other drivers have. His step father is IMS President Doug Boles. Don't know how it will shake out obviously, but I'm not sure Daly's ride is going to be picked all that easily.

The last 500 I worked saw a frantic phone call to a driver on bump day to get him to the track (he was at the mall with his wife), so that he could bump another driver and get himself into the field. There was a little feud between the team owner of one team and the father of the other driver. They went back and forth a few times bumping each other until they ran out of attempts.

Adrian is correct in how close the cars are. There are a lot of variables, and the team cannot control all of them, but can try to correct for them. My last year at the 500 the gear splits for the top 3 gears was 25rpm each, just to try to get the best use of the engine revs.

BTW, to show how hard it is, look at Rossi.  Just missed the Fast 9 in 10th with a four lap speed of 227.561mph which was just 0.049 mph or 0.0342 seconds slower over the 10 miles.  That was loosing just 0.0034 seconds per mile to Danica.  Then look at what happened when he had a poor four lap run on Sunday.  He fell from 10th to 32nd on the grid with a speed of 'only' 224.935mph due to wind and a poor handling car that in theory was exactly the same as the day before. 

It's easy for people to dismiss Indy as 2nd rate to F1, but these Ladies and Gentlemen are some of the very very best drivers in the world.  Given a Merc, Ferrari or Red Bull probably 10 of these drivers could win in F1.

Personally I love the event, the type of racing, the drivers etc.  It takes a lot for me as someone who was born and raised int he UK following F1 to a fanatical level in the 80's, but these days Indy car is a better, more interesting series to watch than F1.