Oh ain't that a b!thch!

My wife brought me a letter that we received from the State of PA Motor Vehicle Control Board or some such agency, smugly implying that I got a speeding ticket. When we opened it,  it was a speed camera photo of our minivan, of which she is the primary driver. OH SNAP! We checked the date and sure enough, she was going over the limit in a work zone (40 instead of 30, but still, think of the workers).  

While I won the moral victory and get to hold this over her for a while, I am the registered owner of the vehicle so I am the one who gets the official warning. (no fine thank goodness).  Doesn't matter who was driving, unless the vehicle was stolen or sold of course, I get the ding to my record. Dude, she used up my warning...I needed that! 

Imagine a car whizzing by your skull at 30. Now imagine it at 40. Its significant. As one of those workers, yes, indeed  think of the workers.

Speed cameras ought to be illegal. 

Years ago I got a notice from some town in New Jersey that i made rolling stop on a right hand turn at a red light. (Yay red light cameras). 
 

I was on a business trip at the time and my father was driving the van.  So I called him and told him. He was all indignant and denied it.  But luckily the town in nj sent a video link along with the ticket.  So I emailed him the video. 
 

he quietly paid the ticket. 

While I've unfortunately learned our local traffic cameras don't give warnings. I have also fortunately learned that they appear to effectively equivalent to a parking infraction, and don't affect your driving record... Although I couldn't say if that holds true in work zones.

In reply to Appleseed :

Yes, but that only actually matters when there are workers present.

In reply to Driven5 :

No, it doesn't.  The road is torn up, barriers encroaching into the roadway, etc... It is not the same road that you could safely bast down doing 40.

Imagine there is no shoulder, and narrowed lanes. Your car dies. Wouldn't you rather have people approaching your stalled car at 30 instead of 40?

Of course there are instances where none of this applies, but that is the logic behind lower speeds in construction zones, when workers aren't present.

My superpower is being able to drive the "construction zone" speed limit.  Apparently, if you want to piss off the whole world, that's all you have to do.

It is also not tremendously unusual for them to put up "work zone" signs and speed limits for literal months with absolutely zero barriers, barrels, construction vehicles, workers, or anything.  The only sign that there's a work zone is the 55mph sign instead of the 70mph one.  That one should result in someone being flogged in the public square.

Do they put points on your license in PA?  In NY it's double fine and double points.  10 or 11 points and lose your license. 

Big brother is watching you!

Three years ago - Silver Silverado - Right turn on red but I didn't completely stop. 

It was a $100 fine dismissed as the Judge called it a California stop but really I saw the truck accident and decided to move out of there.

https://payonlineticket.com/media/8/CermakAtHarlem-westbound/2019/5/9/62-74-1F-5A-76-F3-22-24-7B-5B-E7-24-BF-DD-72-66.mp4

My former son in law (daughter divorced) works in bridge construction. He was in a roadside trench and was hit by a U-Haul type rental truck. Doesn't remember any of it. Was thrown across the trench, broke ribs, punctured a lung, and shattered his scapula. There were marks and scrapes on his hardhat from impact, but no concussion. The elderly driver did not stop until he was pulled over by police two exits later. Said he didn't know he had hit anybody. Son in law was lucky to be alive. He could go back to work at light duty around 4 months later and 6 months for full duty. Actual full recovery from pain and range of motion took years.

Be happy if you just get a speeding ticket.

Last year I got a bit of mail from the state saying I owed money for crossing a bridge over in Louisville.  (No toll booths, if you don't have a pass of some sort they take a picture of your plate and just mail you a bill, yay technology.)

The weird thing is I couldn't remember having driven over the bridge and finally worked out the my GF (TigerMom) had borrowed my car.  No biggy and no problem, but here is where it gets weird.  Apparently their system tagged my address with that first bill and now whenever she drives over the bridge in HER car, registered in HER name, I get a bill.  Weird.

In reply to Appleseed :

My local road construction projects have all seemed to be able to return the road to normal speeds at the end of the work day for the majority of the project duration. Drivable road surfaces aren't usually torn up worse than the road was before the project started, sometimes they're actually better aside from the 'bump' at either end, and the barrels only encroach open lanes when workers are present. I've been impressed with how often they've even been able to reopen all lanes when no workers are present, even though they'll be back out there the next day. Way different (and better IMHO) than the way things were done back when I lived in IL.

A stalled car on a narrow 40mph road with poor surface and no shoulders should be slowed for regardless of whether the road conditions are caused by a construction zone or not.

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

My former son in law (daughter divorced) works in bridge construction. He was in a roadside trench and was hit by a U-Haul type rental truck. Doesn't remember any of it. Was thrown across the trench, broke ribs, punctured a lung, and shattered his scapula. There were marks and scrapes on his hardhat from impact, but no concussion. The elderly driver did not stop until he was pulled over by police two exits later. Said he didn't know he had hit anybody. Son in law was lucky to be alive. He could go back to work at light duty around 4 months later and 6 months for full duty. Actual full recovery from pain and range of motion took years.

Be happy if you just get a speeding ticket.

Just as a devils advocate, all the speed zone and construction zone rules would not make an ounce of difference in that case.   In fact, it's my opinion that a speed zone might make a really inattentive driver collision even worse.

This is not suggesting that you shouldn't have speed zones, just that a guy isn't completely safe because they are there.

Streetwiseguy said:

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

My former son in law (daughter divorced) works in bridge construction. He was in a roadside trench and was hit by a U-Haul type rental truck. Doesn't remember any of it. Was thrown across the trench, broke ribs, punctured a lung, and shattered his scapula. There were marks and scrapes on his hardhat from impact, but no concussion. The elderly driver did not stop until he was pulled over by police two exits later. Said he didn't know he had hit anybody. Son in law was lucky to be alive. He could go back to work at light duty around 4 months later and 6 months for full duty. Actual full recovery from pain and range of motion took years.

Be happy if you just get a speeding ticket.

Just as a devils advocate, all the speed zone and construction zone rules would not make an ounce of difference in that case.   In fact, it's my opinion that a speed zone might make a really inattentive driver collision even worse.

This is not suggesting that you shouldn't have speed zones, just that a guy isn't completely safe because they are there.

Order of preference:

1) Not get hit by a truck.

2) Get hit by a truck doing 35 mph.

3) Get hit by a truck doing 70 mph.

Driven5 said:

In reply to Appleseed :

My local road construction projects have all seemed to be able to return the road to normal speeds at the end of the work day for the majority of the project duration. Drivable road surfaces aren't usually torn up worse than the road was before the project started, sometimes they're actually better aside from the 'bump' at either end, and the barrels only encroach open lanes when workers are present. I've been impressed with how often they've even been able to reopen all lanes when no workers are present, even though they'll be back out there the next day. Way different (and better IMHO) than the way things were done back when I lived in IL.

A stalled car on a narrow 40mph road with poor surface and no shoulders should be slowed for regardless of whether the road conditions are caused by a construction zone or not.

That's going to depend on the type of work being performed and how much you want to pay for the project - along with how long you want it to last. If it takes an hour to tear down and an hour to set up, that's 25% of an 8 hour workday so your project duration and cost just got extended. 

wae said:

My superpower is being able to drive the "construction zone" speed limit.  Apparently, if you want to piss off the whole world, that's all you have to do.

It is also not tremendously unusual for them to put up "work zone" signs and speed limits for literal months with absolutely zero barriers, barrels, construction vehicles, workers, or anything.  The only sign that there's a work zone is the 55mph sign instead of the 70mph one.  That one should result in someone being flogged in the public square.

I'm with you on both counts. I'm almost always  the slower vehicle in most any speed zone. Not always at the given speed limit, but way closer that most. Really pisses a lot of folks off. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

From what I've seen, it doesn't look nearly as time consuming (nor costly by extension) as you're thinking.

Driven5 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

From what I've seen, it doesn't look nearly as time consuming (nor costly by extension) as you're thinking.

I've been married to a road construction estimator/project manager for 15 years. They'll probably push to have more than an 8 hour workday to minimize total project duration, but local traffic conditions and project requirements will impose limitations. For example, they may not be allowed to start work until after morning rush hour and have to be clear by evening rush hour. It's usually set by the client, meaning the city/county/state/FHWA. Some will accept more disruption for a faster/cheaper project, some will want to keep the roads clear longer.

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Right.  And a drunk or alzheimer-ey driver is going to hit you at 70 mph because he didn't notice the speed zone sign.

I'm not saying they are a bad thing, I'm saying I'd have my eyes on a swivel if I was working out there.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm fine with being wrong, so perhaps she can explain what I'm missing. It's 2 workers in a truck rolling at 5mph resetting barrels and signage along just the active zone (10 min each, max) before/after anybody else is actively working, and everybody else just consciously parking/storing things in a manner that allows the barrels to be pulled back again at the end of the day to let the available lanes to resume 'normal' use. The full-road openings allowed by removing machinery during periods where it's not needed is obviously more intensive, but I can only imagine that's easily offset by freeing that machinery up to work other jobs in the mean time, rather than just sitting dormant for a prolonged period. As far as I can tell, it's like 1 (2 max) total combined labor hours for the entire site each day. Sure that's still time/money, but doesn't seem a very large percentage, and well worth it from what I've experienced.

I asked her about a 3 mile project that they're working on in town, right down our main street. She says that out of a 9 hour work period, they get 6 hours of work done.

Shutting down involves clearing all the equipment out of the way, adding temporary ramps to manholes and other changes in level, covering/filling holes, restriping (you really cannot underestimate the ability of the general public to do something stupid and it's never their fault), picking up spoil, sweeping and then finally removing the traffic control. At 5 mph, a 3 mile job takes 36 minutes to cover if you're pickin' cones.

Starting up is faster, but you still have to get everything back into position and shut down the appropriate sections of road which involves herding big metal cats. Then you can start removing your temporary ramps/patches.

To add insult to injury, production is down at least 25% at night compared to day work. Well, hopefully not injury, that's why you move slower.

You're not going to move big equipment to another job site. That's a job in itself. You can't just jump in a broom or a paver and go truckin' on down the road. It's dedicated to the job for the duration, or at least until it's no longer needed for that job. When you do park it for the down time, you can't just pull off into the closest spot where it fits. It has to be somewhere that's safe (people hit the damnedest things) and it can be easily maintained/fueled. That's why it's usually all parked in a line, BTW, to make it easy to refuel. And of course, if it's gotta be cleaned out if it's been dealing with asphalt or concrete and that's not always possible in the staging area.

There's a huge amount of planning involved in this ballet. Remember that these jobs go to the low bidder so they're running pretty lean and not moving slow just because  they're lazy - there are very likely penalties in the contract for both quality and completion date.  That's for a private contractor, public entities are usually different.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

If we could talk through it in greater detail, rather than abbreviating things to keep it a tolerable length, I don't think what you're sharing and what.I've observed are in particular disagreement.

Remember, I'm only talking about the difference between the level of effort required to let the available lanes of traffic drive at the posted (40mph) speed limit during off-hours/days vs the level of effort required to force the available lanes of traffic still have to drive at a 'work zone' (30mph) speed limit during off-hours/days. Aside from maybe the barrel jockeys, assuming they wouldn't have to touch the barrels if the work zone speed limits remain in place on off-hours/days, am I wrong in thinking that everything else you describe needs to happen either way?

You say you want all lanes open when work wasn't being performed. In order to allow traffic to drive safely at the posted speed limit, you basically have to revert to a non-construction zone status.

That traffic control is there to keep the general public from doing stupid things. They do stuff like slam into giant stationary trucks painted yellow and black, which is why there's a bumper truck at the entrance to the job that is literally there to take the initial impact. You can't just pick up all the cones and assume it's all good, because a work zone is full of unusual hazards that are not acceptable on a fully open road with a normal speed limit.  So those hazards have to be removed or mitigated.

And if you want to allow the general public to travel at the same speed limit that applies to the finished project, you have to do a whole bunch of daily remediation. If you can keep it as a coned up work zone with a slower speed limit, you don't have to do as much and that means you can spend more time actually doing the work that needs to be done.

They're not leaving it coned to piss you off. They're doing it to protect you and everyone else, at a fairly high level of effort. Traffic control consumes a lot of planning, and you have to submit your traffic control plan when you submit your bid to do the work.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

And there's the problem with a discussion that requires getting into details and nuances through a medium that doesn't effectively allow them in any reasonably concise manner. Based on that first sentence alone, you are obviously misunderstanding significant portions of what I wrote... And quite possibly likewise in reverse.