Overall THE BEST vehicle for driving in snow

No Time said:

I'm probably going to regret stirring this, but....

 I have to disagree on the manual transmission. 

Im not sure why you think there's a lot of slippage needed to get moving, just a light touch on the throttle and smooth operation of the clutch can avoid the need to abuse the clutch.  

With an auto, when you are stopped, you can apply any amount of torque to the wheels from 0-peak torque @ stall RPM.  With a manual applying below some threshold is really hard/taxing on the clutch and if your speed doesnt increase to whatever is ~1000rpm in 1st gear, you have to continuously slip the clutch.

When you want to apply an insanely low torque to the wheels - enough to get you moving, but not enough to slip the wheels, a manual isn't the best tool for the job.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I can recall many times where, with an automatic, the drive wheels would start slipping before the brake was fully released.  You cannot apply zero torque with an automatic in gear.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I can recall many times where, with an automatic, the drive wheels would start slipping before the brake was fully released.  You cannot apply zero torque with an automatic in gear.

0 torque is somewhere before full brake release, but its achievable.

Funny I saw this thread pop up and forgot all about starting it just over a year ago.  My FWD Mazda CX-9's tires should be just about bald by the time it snows, so I'll be well-prepared. 

I can't even imagine why I started such a thread, unless it had something to do with No. 1 Son's 4WD 6-speed manual Dodge 1500, which might well see snow this winter and is sporting 4 new Continental TerrainContact AT tires.

I agree on the automatic probably being better on snow/ice. Probably not as fun but better overall getting point a to point b with less drama.. My wife's AWD Prius on all weather tires is really nice to drive in the winter. Even with the electronic Nannies, the electric rear diff and cvt does a superb job.

Q: Overall THE BEST vehicle for driving in snow

A: Someone elses vehicle

ProDarwin said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I can recall many times where, with an automatic, the drive wheels would start slipping before the brake was fully released.  You cannot apply zero torque with an automatic in gear.

0 torque is somewhere before full brake release, but its achievable.

And then when the tires are spinning while the brakes are still applied?

I was winter-trained to just flow with it and burn down to clean pavement, so the point is moot there.  All the same it was kind of amusing to be stopped at a light, then realize you didn't have your foot on the brake hard enough because the back of the car was wiggling around 

My last response was far too reasoned so I'll try again.

In the last 5 years trappers and people who live and travel in the far north seem to have gone away from the simple two stroke sleds (bravo / scandic 380) and gone to newer four strokes. So if people who travel in subzero temps relying on snowmobiles to get them home and harvest food and firewood say that the new scandic swt is the best it's hard to argue. 
 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I will admit I have driven some cars where first was tall enough that I could see where the concerns about clutch slipping come from, but I find it hard to see how feathering the clutch enough to get moving in winter conditions would be damaging unless someone was trying to do that continuously to creep along for extended distances. 

I grew up driving mostly 2wd pickups through winters in Massachusetts (central and western) for the first 15 years I was driving. They were used to pull snowmobile trailers and get to work regardless of the weather (trucking companies rarely shut down the break bulk hub terminal).

They varied from square body full size Chevys, square body s10s, B2200, and 99 ranger.  I would shovel the snow around the truck into the bed for weight right after the storm and it would melt away in a couple days, around the same time the roads were down to bare pavement.

It may be that the gearing in the trucks made the experience different from other vehicles. Crawling along at less that 1000 rpm wasn't an issue, 500-600 was possible, even with the clutch fully engaged.  

ProDarwin said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I can recall many times where, with an automatic, the drive wheels would start slipping before the brake was fully released.  You cannot apply zero torque with an automatic in gear.

0 torque is somewhere before full brake release, but its achievable.

The problem with that is you have overlap between when your torque at the drive wheels goes past zero and starts to increase while the brakes on the non drive wheels are still applied creating additional drag to overcome to get moving. 

1SlowVW said:

My last response was far too reasoned so I'll try again.

In the last 5 years trappers and people who live and travel in the far north seem to have gone away from the simple two stroke sleds (bravo / scandic 380) and gone to newer four strokes. So if people who travel in subzero temps relying on snowmobiles to get them home and harvest food and firewood say that the new scandic swt is the best it's hard to argue. 
 

 

Well I mean when fuel is $12 a gallon and you're not on the actual road system they are handy. 

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

I didn't see any mention of roads in the title question. 
Tell me a better way to get through a couple hundred miles of snow covered land? 

No Time said:

ProDarwin said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

I can recall many times where, with an automatic, the drive wheels would start slipping before the brake was fully released.  You cannot apply zero torque with an automatic in gear.

0 torque is somewhere before full brake release, but its achievable.

The problem with that is you have overlap between when your torque at the drive wheels goes past zero and starts to increase while the brakes on the non drive wheels are still applied creating additional drag to overcome to get moving. 

We are discussing the theoretical best vehicle for driving in the snow.  All wheels are drive wheels

1SlowVW said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

I didn't see any mention of roads in the title question. 
Tell me a better way to get through a couple hundred miles of snow covered land? 

If we are going to go there, this how we do it here in Alaska. Thousand miles, no fossil fuels. Runs on chum salmon and belly rubs. Preaching to the choir!

crankwalk (Forum Supporter) said:

pheller said:

Suggestions for good chains or other type of traction adder for 33" truck tires? 

Find a shop with a siping knife or do it yourself. Could stud them yourself but then that's your winter set permanently. 

Do you just want chains for the occasional deep snow day or everyday through the winter? I would not use chains everyday for winter driving when you're going to get on the highway eventually. 

 

Occasional super deep snow. 

Current tires on the truck are snowflake rated so they do pretty good but I want to carry chains or cables just in case. 

In reply to pheller :

I'd get the chains that are easiest to install when you're already stuck just in case you get buried before you have a chains to put them on. Nobody plans on doing that but you know how it is. I'll take easy install over durability considering you'll use them so sparingly.

I know konig makes some easy install ones but not sure if they go up to truck sized profiles.

I've had a few AWD/4WD vehicles:

1999 Jeep Cherokee

2001 Audi Allroad

2005 Phaeton

2000 Jeep Wrangler

2004 F-150 FX4

2004 Ford Expedition

1999 Suburban 1500

2004 Suburban 2500

2007 Passat 4Motion

And my experience is that longer wheelbase is better than shorter.  More weight is better than less weight.  AWD systems are better than 4WD systems for 99% of situations till it reaches THAT POINT when true 4WD is better.  So the Wrangler legit felt like it wanted to kill me, the Germans were all supremely capable and make anyone feel like a hero behind the controls, the Suburbans required a defter hand at the wheel but are capable of pushing through snow that's well over the bumper.

Add in the fact that some dingleberry is likely to plow into you because they got their Altima rolling on bald tires and are now 100% out of control, I like the protection of the 'burb as well.

I still miss the old 'Zuk. Something about those 99-05 Grand Vitara's was amazing. 

crankwalk (Forum Supporter) said:

1SlowVW said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

I didn't see any mention of roads in the title question. 
Tell me a better way to get through a couple hundred miles of snow covered land? 

If we are going to go there, this how we do it here in Alaska. Thousand miles, no fossil fuels. Runs on chum salmon and belly rubs. Preaching to the choir!

I'm not nearly far enough north for either , most winters we only get a 3-5 feet of snow. But I know there's still quite a dog teams in Labrador and I imagine up in the territory's it's the same.

For me though I'd take the sled over the dogs. I know a dog team can go all day but I think it's almost as much of a job driving as it is for the dogs pulling. 

 

As for the people here who see a couple inches of snow once or twice a winter deliberating over what the best option is. I'll reserve my comments. Same people that tell me I need a 30hp snowblower.

If you want to know the best AWD go to a place that has a lot of snow and look at what most people are driving. I was in Tahoe and it looked like every 5th car was a Subaru. I live in Chicago so have some experience with snow and have been driving Subaru for some time. Few AWD are build ground with such a system, most slap on rear wheel drive system to a FWD car so they say they are AWD. These systems are always second rate to a ground up AWD.  4WD is a whole other beast and if you just drive on roads 95% of the people will be served better by a AWD system. All tires equal the best AWD cars are the Subarus and Audis hands down bother were designed and built as true AWD cars and not as an after thought to gain market share. Another plus is many subarus can still be boaught with a stick shift for a further connection with the road.

My '97 Subaru Impreza Brighton Coupe was positively unstoppable in the snow. Several years ago when I was living about 30 minutes away from St Louis I remember there was a huge snow storm and it seemed like everything was shut down. I took the ol' Scoob out to play, pretending I was Colin McRae. No vehicle I've owned before or since has even come close to it's snow plowing abilities. Sometimes I really miss that car.

What car is the best in the snow?  Hard to determine as there are so many different types of snow that affect traction.  But regardless of that trivia the best one is the car/tire combination you like sliding around in.  

In reply to pheller : "Current tires on the truck are snowflake rated"

That means more than one thing these days.

Fun to see this thread still kicking around.  Number One Son is still hoping for his first adventure in snow, equipped with a Ram 1500 4x4 sporting Continental Terrain Contact tires.

Since it never snows here, I'm confident that the FWD CX-9 and the Vredestein Quatrac Pros will remain unchallenged.

Tony Sestito said:

AWD is great, but it's not necessary. My old 2012 manual trans Mazda 3 on winter tires was probably the best vehicle I've had for winter driving. While it wasn't as fun as the two WRX's I've had, it never even got close to getting stuck and could stop and turn better. Parking lot donuts are not nearly as entertaining, but FWD + snows will get you where you need to go with zero drama.

That said, when it comes to never getting stuck, my Power Wagon with the full-time 4WD NP203 laughs at winter. Stopping is... uhh... interesting, but it will go anywhere, even in feet of snow and ice. And it looks damn majestic while doing it.

The best vehicle I've ever driven in snow in the 30 plus years I drove in Upstate NY was my `93 Dodge 2500, manual transmission, 4x4, 12 valve Cummins (shown below being used for building demolition).  I would have to do something colossally stupid to get it stuck plowing snow and I never had an issue otherwise. 

I don't have any pictures of it but the worst was my '73 Plymouth Fury four door, 318, automatic with bald bias ply tires.  Attempting to drive it in the snow was colossally stupid so I guess in that sense it wasn't much different from the Dodge...