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e_pie
e_pie HalfDork
3/25/13 11:06 a.m.
fanfoy wrote: Does it have to be certified? If not, you could look into the many kits available. It allows you to do the maintenance yourself (cheaper), get a non-certified engine (MUCH cheaper) and a lot of design have folding wings to save a little money on hangar fees.

Nope, I've actually been looking at experimentals as they seem to have a little bit better performance for the dollar vs. certified aircraft.

I've been pretty smitten with the Glasair I, it looks like a great plane for the price, at least on paper.

e_pie
e_pie HalfDork
3/25/13 11:10 a.m.
Aeromoto wrote: On the subject of ultra lights, experimentals, etc, those are hobby fodder and will do you no good as a career builder. Employers want time logged in certified aircraft, ultra lights will do your resume no good.

I didn't know that about experimentals, that sucks, that takes a lot of afforadable used options off the table.

aircooled
aircooled PowerDork
3/25/13 11:21 a.m.

Why would an employer not like Glasair time? That seems strange to me. Its going to be a higher performance plane then most production planes. As long as it has a reasonable panel, it seems like it would provide just as useful, if not better, training.

My concern with a homebuilt would be making sure it was put together well. I am not sure you can really check out a glass plane fully. Even metal planes are hard to fully check (spar issues etc).

pres589
pres589 SuperDork
3/25/13 11:25 a.m.

Wikipedia says there's STC'd packages out there to allow for automotive fuel to be used in the Cessna 150 (and maybe the 152 gets coverage or has its own similar packages) which would really reduce cost should you want to deal with it. Would definitely lower the fuel costs.

172 is a whole lot more airplane though... would really rather be in the bigger bird if I had my choice, but 30% more buy-in cost is nothing to sneeze at.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/25/13 11:28 a.m.
pres589 wrote: Wikipedia says there's STC'd packages out there to allow for automotive fuel...

Doh! Forgot about that! Pops had converted the 140 to that as well. Not so much savings now though, I would imagine.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/25/13 11:28 a.m.

In reply to Osterkraut:

I, will?

pres589
pres589 SuperDork
3/25/13 11:31 a.m.

In reply to Javelin:

Have you priced Av-gas lately?

There's a couple reasons Cessna is building a 172-Diesel, should be on sale in a few months. Very hard to find the stuff outside the USA, and a 30% or so increase in fuel economy when flying on Jet-A, along with some big drop in cost per gallon. I think I heard Av-gas was about $7 a gallon around here, Jet-A is $4 something?

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
3/25/13 11:32 a.m.

I have nothing in writing, but I disagree that experimentals are "hobby fodder". Mine is experimental because it's been reconfigured, however I have seen high end "production" aircraft that would not be considered experimental but are so because of some paperwork issues.

As far as GrassRoots flying, joining a club or partnering with someone you trust will cut costs considerably. I know four guys that went in on a Piper Cub, the one partner that does not have his Cert is being trained by another that is a certified instructor. Good for all parties.

fanfoy
fanfoy Reader
3/25/13 11:33 a.m.

In reply to Aeromoto:

Why would an employer not want time logged into an experimental. From what I know (not much admittedly), it depends on the kind of airplane and the kind of flying you did in relation to the kind of flying you want to do. A million hours of doing circles around the airport with your Cessna is not gonna get you a job at an airline.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/25/13 11:34 a.m.

In reply to pres589:

No, I haven't. I had to give up pursuing my Private's because I can't afford to fly, even in rentals. Pops had his conversion 20 years ago when 87 was still under $1. I figured with gas now around $3.50-$4 it probably wasn't as much of a savings anymore versus back then.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/25/13 11:38 a.m.
fanfoy wrote: A million hours of doing circles around the airport with your Cessna is not gonna get you a job at an airline.

Bingo bango! My original career goal was to join the Air Force and go flying on the transports to build actual useful time (multi-jet, large) and retire with a pension and then get an immediate airline job (because that's how some staggering number of airline pilots get hired, it was over 50% IIRC).

If you really want to pay your own way into a flying career, you need to look non-traditional. Float plane stuff, bush flying, and helicopters.

spitfirebill
spitfirebill UltraDork
3/25/13 12:03 p.m.
JoeyM wrote: I'm pretty sure that in the USA, those are considered to be Light Sport Aircraft, not ultralights. Our requirements are REALLY limiting

Limiting and pretty stupid IMHO.

Pretty sure with LSA you cannot pilot a Cessna 150. But you can fly a groundlooping Luscombe 8A.

When FAA came up with the ultralight rule, Canada I think had a 300 lb limit (maybe more). Nope FAA set a 254 lb limit. Which really hampered US builders pretty much requiring 2 stroke engines.

If you build an LSA aircraft, you can get the training and be your own mechanic.

Mitchell
Mitchell SuperDork
3/25/13 12:03 p.m.

One of my professors from last year owns a cirrus sr22. Talk about opening up a new world of weekend trips!

kazoospec
kazoospec HalfDork
3/25/13 12:04 p.m.

Did I mis-read, or did you say you are in military IT? Have you at least asked if the military would consider retraining you? If you've already got 10 years in, I'm assuming you're in your late 20's. When I was looking at joining the ANG they were offering flight training if I passed aptitude and physical exams and was under 35 years of age. In exchange, they wanted a 7 year sign on. (2 disclaimers: 1. these were recruiters talking and 2. the military was having retention problems at the time, they aren't now) Might be a way to get what you want and not throw away the time you've already invested towards a military pension.

e_pie
e_pie HalfDork
3/25/13 12:13 p.m.
kazoospec wrote: Did I mis-read, or did you say you are in military IT? Have you at least asked if the military would consider retraining you? If you've already got 10 years in, I'm assuming you're in your late 20's. When I was looking at joining the ANG they were offering flight training if I passed aptitude and physical exams and was under 35 years of age. In exchange, they wanted a 7 year sign on. (2 disclaimers: 1. these were recruiters talking and 2. the military was having retention problems at the time, they aren't now) Might be a way to get what you want and not throw away the time you've already invested towards a military pension.

Yeah I applied for that last year in the Air Force but it didn't work out and I'm too old for those programs now. I still have a few more years before I'm too old to apply for helicopter pilot in the Army though, but with the budgeting ridiculousness going on right now the outlook isn't so great. The more hours I log the better though as it will make my package that much stronger.

e_pie
e_pie HalfDork
3/25/13 12:14 p.m.
Mitchell wrote: One of my professors from last year owns a cirrus sr22. Talk about opening up a new world of weekend trips!

lol not a chance I could afford something like that, but yeah the country starts to look mighty small when you can travel in straight lines at 200+mph

pilotbraden
pilotbraden SuperDork
3/25/13 12:32 p.m.

Congratulations on being close to obtaining your private certificate. An airworthy Cessna 150 can be purchased for $10,000- $20,000. Insurance will run about $400 per year. The cost of an annual inspection can be reduced if you are willing to assist. A friend assisted on his annual on a 150 taildragger, it cost him $500 this year. Fuel is $4.50 - $7.00 per gallon , using 4-5 gallons per hour. If you want 4 seats a Piper PA-22 Tri Pacer is a great value. I have a customer that flies one. They can be had for $12,000-$25,000. The insurance runs $500- $600 per year. The annual can be a bit more pricy, they are fabric covered. Fuel burn is 6-8 gallons per hour. I am in the aviation business, call me or e mail me for any advice. I know of a very well maintained Tri Pacer for sale as well as several PA-28 Cherokees.

Braden

Osterkraut
Osterkraut UberDork
3/25/13 12:42 p.m.
Javelin wrote: In reply to Osterkraut: I, will?

Cool! Also tell him I hope he enjoyed his flight to the Bahamas last fall.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/25/13 12:59 p.m.

In reply to Osterkraut:

Yes, I realize you can use google with a plane's N-number. Loss of privacy is a downside to being a plane owner. There's pictures of him and his plane all over the net. No need to be a cyber-bully about it.

Osterkraut
Osterkraut UberDork
3/25/13 1:08 p.m.
Javelin wrote: In reply to Osterkraut: No need to be a cyber-bully about it.

God you're soft. Cyber-bullying my ass, that's a little fun with some mild doxxing at best.

Spinout007
Spinout007 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
3/25/13 1:11 p.m.

In reply to pres589:

30% more buy in get's you 2 extra seats, and a WHOLE lot quieter cabin. Anything more than an hour or so in a 152 used to send me running for earplugs or reaching for the throttle to dial it back some. Could go all day in a 172 or 206.

Hope my hotlink works here, but this is my ultimate goal. Cars are fun, but this is the goal for 10-15 years down the line.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron PowerDork
3/25/13 1:27 p.m.

Much like racing, the purchase of the airplane itself is not where the real expenses lie. Consumables, operating costs, and maintenance will get you. Unlike a car, they must be done. They can not be deferred. You also have to remain current with your flight time. You can't just fly one weekend every month or two as the funds are available then let the plane sit for a year while you're in a rough financial patch.

Also, the airframe is not the expensive part of an airplane. The powerplant is a bigger cost, and if you want good avionics, those can be even more. If you are planning to turn aviation into a future career, you will need a full avionics suite to get your instrument rating. This will be $10k+ easily. You will probably also want a Complex, High Performance aircraft to be able to fly you above weather. Things just got a lot more expensive.

Also look really hard about your potential to make aviation a future career. You're starting a bit late. Going on to get those civilian aviation jobs with a people or parcel carryer you will be up against all the guys coming out of the military with aviation as their actual job, turbine experience, and a lot more flight hours than you. I don't know for sure, but you might have okay luck with a thousand+ flight hours in light aircraft going to some sort of law enforcement, forestry, or firefighting gig since they'll be flying small Cessnas and such as spotter planes.

If your job is IT, and you want to fly. You might do better getting a good IT job that gives you the disposable income for aiplanes. Or, go into some sort of IT consulting or remote set-up field that requires you to do a lot of travel within a moderate sized area (say one state). That way, you can use your flying as a business expense and market it as a quicker way to service clients. My dad did something similar in the late 80's-early 90's flying around the Bay Area and Northern California to set up computer networks for schools, libraries, hospitals, etc. You don't need to be a professional pilot to make having an airplane marketable for your career.

Edit: Or aero-commute to a job in an expensive area like LA, NY, or the Bay. Then live in a far away suburb with much lower housing costs. The pay bump to normally cover people living in those ridiculously expensive areas can offset or cover the cost of operating a plane. A nice 45min-hour flight to work, bike to the office. No rush-hour stress.

Double-edit: I don't say the above to discourage you from flying. I tell you this to soberly evaluate it. Do not bank on aviation leading to a career. If you can manage and justify the expenses without expecting any kind of return on investment, go for it.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/25/13 1:43 p.m.

In reply to Osterkraut:

It's not fun when the person doing it only posts harassing replies. You're a dick and a cyber bully and you know it. You wouldn't post up that kind of stuff using 914's glider N-number or Aeronca's or PilotBraden's, let alone the license plates nearly every GRM'er has posted on this forum. There's absolutely nothing good-natured about any of the E36 M3 you pull, and I'm tired of it. Grow up.

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
3/25/13 2:07 p.m.

Aw crap, I gotta photochop my N numbers out?

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
3/25/13 2:23 p.m.

only if you are bothered by people who act like asshats

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