Panhandling, Philanthropy, Kickstarter and Car Projects - Rant Inside

In reply to Swank Force One:

Ehh, I can agree to you to a certain extent, but the moldable also comes as a flight risk.

yamaha wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Ehh, I can agree to you to a certain extent, but the moldable also comes as a flight risk.

Not if you take care of them. That's a big problem with corporations these days, they don't want to take care of their talent.

That's what happened to first Tech Writing job I had, I hired on at the same salary I was making with State Farm at the time, but also gave up all my benefits (contractor) to be able to change careers.

They had Tech Writer I, II, III as job descriptions......for months before I left I was doing a III level of work (I was the editor of an 8 writer team).

No raise, no full-time benefits, etc. So they lost me when I moved to another company for a 35% raise + awesome benefits.

93EXCivic wrote: I could see $40k-$45k if you have a degree as a CAD specialist (I have forgotten what the exact term for that degree is) but for an engineer, it ain't happening.

The engineering office I work in has a lot of fresh-out-of-school kids, and since we do a lot of CAD work a modest number of the initial hiring was of people with just Associate's degrees (2 year degrees). There was a bit incident the first year where someone posted a want-ad flier from a local pizza joint for delivery drivers- that was paying a higher hourly wage than the Associate degreed CAD jockeys were getting paid.

$40K for an associates degree job right out of school or for a starting salary for someone in fashion I'd think would be decently enticing. Heck, when I started in 2K with a Master's degree in engineering it was only around $55k and THAT was a job in Connecticut...

I'm pretty sure the old guys had this exact same conversation about Gen X. Now Gen X is doing the hiring and moaning about millenials or whatever handy tag we've hung on the latest generation of kids just out of school. News flash: some are lazy and entitled, some are hard workers. Just like every generation. So, moving away from the old man cranky pants complaining...

I did crowdsource a race effort. I got a certain amount of crap for it, because apparently being part of a business means there are hundred dollar bills stacked up in boxes around the office. The business should be giving money to struggling racers, apparently. Really, I should have spun it differently and sold $50 t-shirts instead, which is effectively the same as asking someone for a $50 donation with a shirt as a thank-you. That's what I'd do next time.

But it worked, and it worked very well. Not only did we raise the money we needed, but we also had a built-in fan base, people who were invested (literally and figuratively) in our team. The reason it worked was because we had people who wanted to see us succeed at something daring. We were living out the fantasy of our fans, and in return we did our best to bring them along on that trip. Because we'd done it once before, people had an idea what to expect.

The film about the race was also supported by Kickstarter. People who supported it got varying levels of reward, from a copy of the film to their name in the credits to a signed poster. It was being done by a professional video producer. Again, it was successful.

That's the key. You have to give something in return. In the case of the race, we gave people an experience. In the case of the film, they got a copy of the film. And in both cases, we had experience doing what we were planning to do, and could show that we could fulfill our promises. And, in each case, the biggest contributors were the guys asking for the money. Adam sunk a pile of his own money into the film. I put a bunch of my own savings into the race, and Flyin' Miata also spent a fair bit.

Random people asking for random stuff without anything to back it up isn't going to work - and it's nothing new. Anyone in my business has been receiving requests from people who want a "sponser" for years, often accompanied by a plan like "everyone knows me and I cruise the strip every Friday night and I'll talk you up as the dopest place to get parts". That's not new. It's just more visible if you go on things like Kickstarter.

Ashyukun wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: I could see $40k-$45k if you have a degree as a CAD specialist (I have forgotten what the exact term for that degree is) but for an engineer, it ain't happening.

The engineering office I work in has a lot of fresh-out-of-school kids, and since we do a lot of CAD work a modest number of the initial hiring was of people with just Associate's degrees (2 year degrees). There was a bit incident the first year where someone posted a want-ad flier from a local pizza joint for delivery drivers- that was paying a higher hourly wage than the Associate degreed CAD jockeys were getting paid. $40K for an associates degree job right out of school or for a starting salary for someone in fashion I'd think would be decently enticing. Heck, when I started in 2K with a Master's degree in engineering it was only around $55k and THAT was a job in Connecticut...

FWIW, $55k back in 2000 is currenlty about $76k in today's dollars.

alfadriver wrote: They value their work, apparently.

Apparently...sheesh

I value mine too, but that doesnt mean Im gonna go on unemployment, or bitch about "how little work there is out there in the big bad cold hard world" rather than take an available job, at least until something better comes around.

The guys doing the hiring say theres not enough people out there willing to do the work...and the masses tell them theyre not paying enough.

The guys looking for jobs say theres none to be had...and the masses tell them theyre not looking hard enough

who's right?

In reply to Keith Tanner:

For the record, and i hope you didn't take it negatively, i was more pointing out that the "kickstarter effect" isn't always bad. I would bet that some of the people complaining about it are also the same people that applauded your efforts.

In reply to 4cylndrfury: Its a little of both. There are fewer jobs (relative to workers) and companies are expecting a lot more productivity for their dollar.
Take the job your describing. Your company wants to hire someone but the wage they want to pay is not sufficient for the people that they want. They are offering underemployment. Someone qualified foe the job feels due to the income offered it is not actually a job. Your company feels their are no good employees because they can't find anyone willing to work for the pay they are offering.

I think both perceptions are right to a degree. I do think some companies are using the current climate to be extra aggressive with productivity expected vs pay offered. I think most employees just want wages that are growing with inflation and understand that their value in the market is eroded some by labor availability.

I think particularly with tech workers its important for the company to realize the potential to improve the bottom line of the company that an employee offers and ensure they are compensated to a level that recognizes that and retains that value. As a worker if you don't bring value exceeding your peers you can expect to be easily replaced and expect low loyalty.

There was a recent train wreck over on Special Stage and Rally Anarchy where a guy started an Indiegogo effort to raise the money to get from the PNW to Michigan and race at Sno*Drift. It was funny to see the rally community first tell him to go get a job and stop begging, then analyze the past crowdfunding efforts within the rally community and their merits (Hint, the previous ones had already give a lot to the community and were very popular people). Then the best bit was people started digging into the guys history and proved he'd not paid for a Rally car previously plus various bad business practices. It's worth digging out all the threads for a read.

Back to relevance to this topic. My starting salary in 1990 with a MAsters degree was 11,500 GBP's or $18,700 at the time, or about $35k in todays money. By the standards of the time in Britain I was doing well, but I moved here in 1994 for a BIG BIG increase. At that time Ford collage grads were making $40-45k so $40k today for a starting Engineer seems piss poor to me.

There are a few things I like and generally hate about Kickstarter.

First is "crowd-charity" and it's a bit annoying because its more like "hype-charity".

There are thousands of already established non-profits out there who do good work and need more money and "hype-charity" makes a fancy video for a charity that will ultimately fail. Hype-charity will sometimes morph into docu-charity, where a guy will ask the masses to fund his life crisis while he films it.

Now, for crowd sourcing for media projects makes sense because maybe I want a movie to be made about mountain biking in Pennsylvania and crowd funding may be the only way of making it happen. It just gets a bit silly when none of us really benefit from the product except the movie-maker.

I wish our country would allow true crowd-vesting, because then I could fund some total stranger in his project to rebuild/restore a $200 AE86 and sell it for $10,000. Sure, I'll chip, as long as I get a cut.

4cylndrfury wrote:

alfadriver wrote: They value their work, apparently.

Apparently...sheesh I value mine too, but that doesnt mean Im gonna go on unemployment, or bitch about "how little work there is out there in the big bad cold hard world" rather than take an available job, at least until something better comes around. The guys doing the hiring say theres not enough people out there willing to do the work...and the masses tell them theyre not paying enough. The guys looking for jobs say theres none to be had...and the masses tell them theyre not looking hard enough who's right?

At the moment, they are. If you were, you would not have 5 open positions. Based on inflation, I was making more as a grad student than what you are offering.

Wow this blew up over the past 24 hours. I tried to keep this vague to not bash the creater of this most recent example.

I have no issue with crowd-sourcing to be honest. Things along the lines of Keith's example are a great use of such fundraising efforts. People are getting at least something in return.

I think it becomes redicolous when some ask for money for absolutely nothing. This isn't exclusive to the internet.

In response to the situation which prompted me to start this thread: As unfortunate as totaling your only car (lacking comprehensive coverage) is, I fail to see how it is the world's problem that you cannot create more automotive "entertainment" videos on YouTube and earn an income from them.

As far as the great Gen Y debate, I see the frustration. I'm building my at a local non-profit. I am still finishing undergrad. I work 40 hours/week and take 14 credits per semester. I make a fair wage considering my skillset and current lack of degree. At the end of the day, I'll eventually have 8 years invested here when I finish grad school with two Master's. I could buy a house, a new sports car, etc. and live relatively comfortable. However, I've managed to save a ton to put me in a better position once I complete undergrad. I've sold my "fun" car to shore up funds for classes this fall, paid cash for my beater, and my only electronic devices are an iPhone 4 and a computer I use for work only. Everything else is done at the school library.

By contrast, I will have friends who finished undergrad as much as 3 years before I did (switched majors, fell behind). They range anywhere from Art degrees to Nursing degrees. Most of them, females at least, are waitresses because they feel that an entry level "professional" job is beneath them. But a waitress is somehow better? I just don't understand that line of thinking.

I really think it's that those who can't accept reality are a better story than those of us who truly "want it".

My best friend's gf has an associates degree in nursing and is too lazy to re-attempt her boards in case she fails. Her current entry-level job in the public health sector is "beneath" her. The solution: take a year off to be an au pair in Germany for ~ $5/hour. I wish I were making this up.

Swank Force One wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: For the record, and i hope you didn't take it negatively, i was more pointing out that the "kickstarter effect" isn't always bad. I would bet that some of the people complaining about it are also the same people that applauded your efforts.

Not at all. I got to see quite a few reactions to our crowdsourced sponsorship, and they weren't all applause. Ours was an excellent example of the breed - a fundraising effort that looked either like a vanity project or a valid attempt to harness community enthusiasm. A lot of it has to do with how you present what you're going to do and if you can show a past track record.

Really, it's not that different than selling stock in a company that's just starting out. You take people's money and you promise them something. Maybe more money, maybe a product. But you've got to promise them SOMETHING.