Parenting - How Do YOU Do It?

First there is hands-on parenting, and hands off. I am in a similar situation, where i am more off and the Mrs is more on (unintentional word play here). My wife's only commitment is in the home, no outside work, and it's a full time + job making the household run (4 kids, shuttle service and laundry is easily 100hrs a week). She spends a redic amount of time with the kids. I do a decent bit of pitching in with the little berkeleyers but I am busy making a living more than a few hours a day and have another business to run nights and weekends. We try and work it into the schedule to have some good "fam time" over the weekend where we can all enjoy some pair screaming at each other at the tops of their lungs, usually because someone was looking at someone else. 

I think you need a second kid to keep the first one and the Mrs busy while you work on your projects.

*this advice is not worth the paper it's printed on

pheller said:

For those of you who might have encountered similar relationships friction when it came to parenting, how did you do it? Did you give up hobbies or just confine them to after-bed hours?

 

Divorce :)

I'm a very involved parent but from a young age I made that mean including him in my hobbies.  At 3 he was attending car shows riding on my shoulders and learning the difference between exhaust manifold and headers.  Even when I was married I was the more involved parent but that said I never let him become my life.  

The only advantage I can see to divorce is that you can parent however you want during your court-approved custody. Nobody looking over your shoulder.

Of course the downside to this is that the ex could find an amazingly helpful and rich new spouse who convinces the court your a danger to the kids while paying (and boning) numerous babysitters making the ex's life a joy while you struggle in the dating game and largely remain a single part-time child-support paying parent for 18 years. 

Even more challenging is that my state has a rule that requires both parents live in the state unless the other approves a move. So if I wanted to move closer to family for assistance, she could deny me that, while her rich parents could move closer, mine could not.

I've frankly never seen a situation in which divorce benefited the father unless he was rich and could find younger mates than his ex.

3 is a rough age. The demand for attention is strong. It will get better as they age.

BUT - I honestly think this is a place you need to tread carefully. I understand in general you want kid to grow up independent. But many things in your post can be understood (especially in today's society) as "I made a decision to care for a person and now I'm changing my mind". And I'd bet your wife is reacting to something along those lines much more than she is reacting to your general message of "I'd like to help child learn independence skills". 

Can you re-frame the conversation as "what's best for kid" rather than "what's best for you"?

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Can you re-frame the conversation as "what's best for kid" rather than "what's best for you"?

Most definitely. It means giving up hobbies and interests and to a certain extent, paying someone else to do projects.

Take the house. I'm in the midst of a bathroom remodel. I could probably do most of it myself, but my wife would rather me spend that time with the kiddo. By paying $10,000 to someone else, I'm regaining my time, but losing out financially. Luckily our house has massively appreciated, so that expenditure won't hurt as much if/when we sell. 

$50k later when the house is to a level that SWMBO finds acceptable, I'd have a lot of free time on my hands, but a lot less money in savings. 

Now, that being said, a major hobby of mine is cycling. I love bikes. I can easily transition "me time" into "daddy daughter time" by taking my kids on bike rides. Excersize for me. Break for Mama. Daddy/Daughter time. 

Cars will have to wait.

Has the discussion gotten to where she expresses that she feels the need to be "on duty" all the time with your child since she knows you won't be? I can see her feeling like she can't step back some because she's afraid it'll be detrimental to your child when you don't fill the void she perceives will be created. 

I'll eat my sock if she isn't struggling with anxiety right now, even just based on only hearing your perspective on it. Maybe spend some time digging into that if you haven't?

My 20 month old loves to help us with literally anything, so I try to split my dedicated time for watching her between household chores, and other fun/learning pursuits for us both. Sometimes that's super boring, sometimes we have a blast. Who cares if the chores take longer if done during that time? It's still time she's getting attention from me, and really I think that's the most important thing. Sounds like Stampie and I have similar perspective there.

pheller said:

I've frankly never seen a situation in which divorce benefited the father unless he was rich and could find younger mates than his ex.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm an outlier.  I am not rich and never looked for a younger mate.  On the day of my divorce I was way better off financially and as you pointed out I then was able to parent my way.  Not suggesting that divorce is the solution here.

Unfortunately, and I'm probably very much in the wrong for feeling this way, but I sorta see kids as a "hobby", just like any other voluntary pursuit.

This is not a good way to see parenthood. I have a ton of hobbies. Golf, hockey, vinyl records, cars, autocross, reading, guitars, etc.

I haven't autocrossed since 2015 (WTF?). I played golf 7 times last year. I haven't used my record player in a month. I have a guitar that I haven't had out of the case in a year. 

EDIT: My lack of participation in these hobbies is not due to parenthood. It is due to other hobbies, or jobs, or just life. /Edit

Those are hobbies. You can drop them and never come back to them, come back to them when you want, or come back to them when it is convenient. There is nothing in that description of hobbies that is in any way similar to parenthood. It is a conscripted job, not a hobby. 

There are many ways to do this job that will work for you or your child or your partner. But you have to have, generally, the right outlook about it. And it does not seem like you're quite there, from the description you gave. 

As to how I parent and how my wife parents and how we parent together, the most important thing is that we do it together and we talk about it. 

Guess what? If you're there, paying attention, your kid will be fine. Kids bounce. Let them be independent. But being independent does not mean that dad is not there, or that dad is even doing his own thing. It means that dad is supervising, actively. At certain ages (under 5, but it will vary child to child) your level of supervision can be reduced, but it is still there. How long does it take a kid to play with a jack, and see what happens when you twist the handle?

My dad always told us about a quote, you don't know the true meaning of selflessness until you're a parent. He said he never understood that fully until he tried to take all 3 of us fishing. He thought that he would be fishing, with his 3 sons. Instead, he was baiting hooks, untangling lines, moving the anchor, fixing the trolling motor, etc. He didn't do 1 second of fishing. We did all of it. And it has paid off. Nowadays, it is vice-versa. We take him fishing. He doesn't do any work, just fishes. I have everything set up. And it is worth every second.

EDIT: One thing I missed: When he was futzing with the anchor and trolling motor, or doing an on-the-water carb rebuild on the outboard, we were learning. He would have us help. We were shown that sometimes fishing involves words we don't say around Grandma, because the damn boat won't start and next time we're buying a Yamaha instead of a Merc.

We have four kids so we played zone instead of man to man. Every kid is different and their interactions with each parent is different. You can both parent differently and both be doing it right. 

Have another kid and you'll learn that neither your model nor your wife's model is sustainable.

Helicoptering can lead to listless or rebellious children who will look for the parents to do everything. Too hands off and the children grow up empowered to do anything they want which makes them harder to control when the need arises. Also, if you are not in alignment as parents, by 5, the kid will start playing parenting tactics against each other to create friction between the parents, they will usually get what they while the parents argue.

Having kids changes your life. This doesn't mean that you have to set your life aside. But this does mean there needs to be a decent level of change.

Find a kid (teenager) that you think is awesome and talk to the parents for advice - not a bunch of clowns on the internet.

What you think are the problems, are really the symptoms. You'll both need to dig deeper If you genuinely want to get down to the root cause(s) of your true problems, and have any hope of actually resolving them.

You chose to get married, and you chose to have a kid. Neither is just some part-time hobby that you get to do only on your own terms. It's time to man/dad up. Stop thinking of everything in terms of 'me', and start thinking of them in terms of 'we'.

But please, tell me more about how low-maintenance of a 3 year old you remember being.

In reply to pheller :

I think you might want to see if she feels like she's the only parent while you're the provider. Decrease her time/responsibility with the kid and increase your time/responsibility with the kid. See how that works. 

Ultimately, the hobby analogy is a really bad way to frame parenting lol. In the first 5 years you should be trying to inject as much life fundamentals, bonding, emotional intelligence, and love into the kid life. After 5 or so they become a bit more self-sustaining. I can't stress enough how important an active male role plays in the upbringing of a child. Don't just be present, be involved.

Good luck

Three is a tough age. I was actually glad I had two toddlers at that point, because that made it clear that they were very different and distinct personalities, which meant that I wasn't as wholly responsible for every facet of their development as I would've probably otherwise mind-berkeleyed myself into believing. So like Seth, I was more comfortable with the fact that Tim and I also had different parenting styles, and also more comfortable with a zone-defense approach. We each had our strengths, and we took turns trying to help the other one maintain some sense of self. That's important, because if you can't maintain  your own health and sanity as parents, then you are, in fact, screwing up on the job. Because job one is to be there as parents. Especially since what constitutes "there" is not necessarily time, but sharing your true selves--both you and your child.

That said, you're super deep in it, and there's not a parent on earth who hasn't questioned themselves, their spouse, and the future of their offspring when they're so bone-tired and emotionally drained they can barely handle a checking account. Think of it like driving lessons: The first time you got on the road, you didn't look far enough ahead and corrected your steering constantly, right? Take the long view, because I can tell you, now that mine are grown, it doesn't exactly go by quickly--there's no longer hour than 9-10 p.m. on a night when your child will not go the berkeley to sleep--but it does somehow pass in the blink of an eye. You're going to fight to maintain that balance, you're going to question each other and yourselves, you're going to make mistakes, but keep flexible, keep adjusting, assume the win and proceed from there to take the job down.

Margie

pheller said:

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Can you re-frame the conversation as "what's best for kid" rather than "what's best for you"?

Most definitely. It means giving up hobbies and interests...

I can't believe I almost missed this gem. Luckily it sounds like mommy is at least modeling some emotional resiliency for your daughter, since daddy obviously isn't ready to.

In reply to Driven5 :

Hey now, I thought we were having an even-keeled and supportive conversation... you know, like emotionally resilient people do .

I agree, though, that you do NOT give up your hobbies and everything else you love. That's a great way to teach your kids that life is joyless and basically pointless. Also a great way to make you resent them.

Margie

"Dad, 'm hungry."

"Whatcha want?"

"Sammich."

"Peanut butter?"

"Yeah. With jam."

"Lets go make it.  You can spread the peanut butter."

The previous is a fantasy for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is there has never once been a three year old who knows what they want to eat.  The theory is correct, though.  You are giving her enough attention that she doesn't feel the need for hooker shoes and mini skirts at 13 , and you are also teaching her a life skill.  Both of these things will make your life better down the road.

Kids are a massive pain in the ass, and also really a good thing if you just treat them as if they are worthy of your attention.  If you think your wife is sucking up to the kid too much, take over some of the tasks and do them your way.  Of course its going to take longer.  Of course some will end in tears.  Of course you will feel un-appreciated when she sticks the sandwich to the table...

You signed on for a job.  It's not all that tough.  You just need to modify your way of doing things a bit, and understand that stuff takes longer.

There isn't one single way to be "there" for your kids. I've know gruff "distant" dads that seemed terrible with babies but were perfect parents and role models to their teens. I've known parents who were the most loving attentive parents ever to their toddlers and then continued that into smothering their middle schoolers into being emo kids just to rebel. I've seen wonderful kids raised in terrible places and terrible kids raised in great places. The idea that any one style will work for all kids is silly. The idea that the who you are as the parent of a baby/toddler determines your entire success as a parent is also silly. And lastly, parenting is a team sport. 

Plus, eventually they let you look after your three year old grandson if you do it even halfway close to right.

Or if you do it completely wrong and as a result they don't care.

Oh boy do I have opinions on this

Marjorie Suddard said:

I agree, though, that you do NOT give up your hobbies and everything else you love. That's a great way to teach your kids that life is joyless and basically pointless. Also a great way to make you resent them.

Exactly. The key being that it's not an either/or proposition. How you enjoy your interests and hobbies may have to change over time, and/or even be put on pause for a bit, but is a far cry from giving up on them.

If only more people actually treated their families like the most important thing in their lives, and feared missing out on (or losing) them half as much as their material things and pastimes.

When I say hobbies and interests what I mean is "remodelling, landscaping, and updating our house on a budget that allow us to live comfortably."

I ride bike maybe 1-3 hours a week. Most weeks not at all. I watch maybe an hour of TV a week if that. I work full time. I also pay for full-time daycare. 

She works part-time, but can't tell her boss no, so ends up working 30 hours a week. Then, despite me paying for daycare 8 hours a day 5 days a week, she insists on keeping kiddo home most Fridays. Whenever she isn't working, she wants kiddo to be at home. Despite me paying for full-time daycare.

I've told her numerous times to quit her job, and I'd even continue paying for daycare. She'd have all day every day to relax. 

Lemme reiterate, she keeps a job that stresses her out, keeps her up at a night, makes her resent me for not helping enough, impacts our ability to take vacations, and is only supposed to be part-time.

The issues isn't with me giving up my hobbies and interests.

I know I need to spend more time with my daughter. I don't question that. But I also disagree that my lack of parenting attention is the sole reason for her stress. 

In reply to pheller :

So your wife obviously wants to maintain a professional identity in addition to that of 'wife and mother', which she wouldn't really even fully have that if she went with your plan. Your misguided offers to 'support' her are effectively undermining her. On top of all of that, she is also obviously trying to deal (alone right now) with managing the inherent guilt and challenges that come with most working mothers.

You've spent a whole lot of time blaming everybody else for your 'woe is me' first world patriarchal problems, but have yet to show any indication of ever having looked in the mirror for the role you're playing in their problems... Which by extension is really just you compounding your own problems with them.

While spending more time with your daughter may be what your daughter needs, what does your wife need?... No, not merely what you think she needs. Ask her what she REALLY needs, then try just listening to and actually understanding her. I highly doubt it's just doing the 'fun' stuff with your daughter more.

Your wife's situation is FAR from unique, and more difficult than you can imagine. Now go ask her what else you can help her with tonight.

.

In response to your original question: I am far from perfect in any of this myself, but recognizing it and continually trying to make improvements in myself has made all the difference in the world for my relationship with both my wife and my kids. Becoming a better father goes hand in hand with becoming a better husband.

Put a kid seat on the bike and take her for a RIDE man.