Piano Tuning

mtn said:

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

Sadly a lot of acoustic pianos and most organs are pretty much worthless now

Why?  There still are people playing/ selling new ones.  I realize there is a whole generation now of kids who grew up with electronics.  But just like there remains a really strong market for records in the digital age, old cars, and other things of a by gone era. 

You’d think vintage pianos would have value.  

Because for the most part, they're large objects that are extremely hard to use that have no use. How many people do you know that have a piano in the house? How many people do you know that actually play it? Have you looked up how much it is to move one?

This is just an example of silly modern thinking.  No electronic keyboard can fully reproduce the sonic nuances of a good piano, much as no digitally-recorded music can duplicate a good performance, or even match the subtlety of an analog recording.

As for moving a piano, that is something that any grassroots individual can accomplish.  You just need friends.  A homebuilt sled or "piano board" and a couple heavy duty dollies make the job do-able.

"extremely hard to use that have no use"?  The same could be said for any musical instrument.  Or machine tool. Certainly both are extremely useful to an individual trained to use them.

In that bygone era, before people spent hours with their faces glued to their phone, many folks had a piano in the house, and it served as a focal point for family fun and interaction.  I would argue that they were better off than we are.

1988RedT2 said:

mtn said:

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

Sadly a lot of acoustic pianos and most organs are pretty much worthless now

Why?  There still are people playing/ selling new ones.  I realize there is a whole generation now of kids who grew up with electronics.  But just like there remains a really strong market for records in the digital age, old cars, and other things of a by gone era. 

You’d think vintage pianos would have value.  

Because for the most part, they're large objects that are extremely hard to use that have no use. How many people do you know that have a piano in the house? How many people do you know that actually play it? Have you looked up how much it is to move one?

This is just an example of silly modern thinking.  No electronic keyboard can fully reproduce the sonic nuances of a good piano, much as no digitally-recorded music can duplicate a good performance, or even match the subtlety of an analog recording.

As for moving a piano, that is something that any grassroots individual can accomplish.  You just need friends.  A homebuilt sled or "piano board" and a couple heavy duty dollies make the job do-able.

"extremely hard to use that have no use"?  The same could be said for any musical instrument.  Or machine tool. Certainly both are extremely useful to an individual trained to use them.

In that bygone era, before people spent hours with their faces glued to their phone, many folks had a piano in the house, and it served as a focal point for family fun and interaction.  I would argue that they were better off than we are.

Had a misprint, meant to say "Extremely hard to move that have no use". Which is true, for most people it takes up space and that is it. 

Yeah, it is easy enough to do for folks like us. Most folks aren't like us.

Take me for an example. I play guitar. I can play a little bit of piano. I want a piano. I can get one for free, but they all need to be moved, and they all need to be tuned. Expensive/hard to tune. Expensive/hard to move. I ain't moving one. For what I want, a keyboard would be fine. Also, I have right now the fewest guitars I've owned in probably 10 years. I have 5 guitars. Easy to move. Easy to store. Easy to tune. And expensive comparatively speaking because of that convenience. Also, we did have a piano growing up. "Focal point for family fun and interaction?" No, it drove everyone out of the room when my brother practiced. And that was before cell phones, and we didn't really have tv.

1988RedT2 said:

 

This is just an example of silly modern thinking.  No electronic keyboard can fully reproduce the sonic nuances of a good piano, much as no digitally-recorded music can duplicate a good performance, or even match the subtlety of an analog recording.

LOL. You must have golden ears. Most people can't tell the difference, and when comparing a good electric piano to an out of tune real piano, I'll take the electric every day of the week. Yeah, I'd take a good real piano over anything, but most of them are out of tune. I'd take a Hoosier over a (insert street tire), but they're expensive and have limited use. 

Oh, I forgot... I actually lived in an apartment with probably the best pianist in Vietnam today. He used to schedule time on the Steinway at school, but he only had a keyboard at home. "It's good enough, this is only practice, not performance"

In reply to mtn :

Oh, I'm not saying electronic keyboards don't have their place.  I'm just saying pianos aren't "worthless" or "useless."

Old pianos have little to no value because of the liabilities involved. They need regular care by a pro. If neglected, they can degrade to the point where they can't easily be restored or need expensive restoration to avoid explosive self-disassemby. Parts can be hard to get because there are so many obsolete models. They're difficult to move*.  They take up a lot of space. And there are a LOT of them out there.

Like old Cadillacs, supply exceeds demand. My wife decided she wanted one for a while, not because she plays or wants to play but because her grandmother had one. Luckily, we couldn't actually fit one in the house. My sister-in-law picked up a free piano or the exact same reason, and I've never seen it used for anything but piling up crap. As someone who has spent many hours at a piano or organ keyboard, that's a shame. But it's just how it is.

"Valueless" is probably a good term. 

* difficult is not impossible, but a large semi-fragile box that weighs hundreds of pounds is difficult

1988RedT2 said:

mtn said:

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

Sadly a lot of acoustic pianos and most organs are pretty much worthless now

Why?  There still are people playing/ selling new ones.  I realize there is a whole generation now of kids who grew up with electronics.  But just like there remains a really strong market for records in the digital age, old cars, and other things of a by gone era. 

You’d think vintage pianos would have value.  

Because for the most part, they're large objects that are extremely hard to use that have no use. How many people do you know that have a piano in the house? How many people do you know that actually play it? Have you looked up how much it is to move one?

This is just an example of silly modern thinking.  No electronic keyboard can fully reproduce the sonic nuances of a good piano, much as no digitally-recorded music can duplicate a good performance, or even match the subtlety of an analog recording.

As for moving a piano, that is something that any grassroots individual can accomplish.  You just need friends.  A homebuilt sled or "piano board" and a couple heavy duty dollies make the job do-able.

"extremely hard to use that have no use"?  The same could be said for any musical instrument.  Or machine tool. Certainly both are extremely useful to an individual trained to use them.

In that bygone era, before people spent hours with their faces glued to their phone, many folks had a piano in the house, and it served as a focal point for family fun and interaction.  I would argue that they were better off than we are.

Acoustics do sound better but its hard to get a single piano to sound like an upright, a rhodes, a grand, a dark grand, a pipe organ, a hammond, vibraphone, and a harpichord and a modern electric piano can do that, do more, weigh 50lbs and not cost a lot and sound great, my wifes Yamaha is great. And it never requires tuning, which is something that needs to be done about whenever the season changes. And you can take it to gigs with you without roadies.

I got an older Baldwin electric organ for $25 delivered with 2 movers putting it in my house. Sounds good and is sad that organ is so forgotten, especially since a whole hell of a lot of songs have organ on them and a lot of people dont realize, its a pretty versatile instrument.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Semi fragile?  This one must be the exception, nearly 100 years old and when I hauled it home the snow was several feet deep.  I put the pickup in 4WD and backed as close to the front door as I could. Then I and my son-in-law’s  muscled it out of the bed and onto 2 rows of planks laid on top of the snow. 

Up and into the door way, and just rolled it to the great room. Straps up to the beams and around the piano. Now grab a come-along and bobs your uncle it’s up on the third floor. No real strain, a few beers as a reward and we all had a go at playing it.  

I’ve  been talked out of putting tacks on the pads  but who knows, if I ever get proficient they might go on.  

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

Sadly a lot of acoustic pianos and most organs are pretty much worthless now

Why?  There still are people playing/ selling new ones.  I realize there is a whole generation now of kids who grew up with electronics.  But just like there remains a really strong market for records in the digital age, old cars, and other things of a by gone era. 

You’d think vintage pianos would have value.  

Some do, but the majority are given away. Take a look at your local craigslist free section, chances are theres a few pianos on there and more than a few organs

z31maniac said:

mtn said:

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

Sadly a lot of acoustic pianos and most organs are pretty much worthless now

Why?  There still are people playing/ selling new ones.  I realize there is a whole generation now of kids who grew up with electronics.  But just like there remains a really strong market for records in the digital age, old cars, and other things of a by gone era. 

You’d think vintage pianos would have value.  

Because for the most part, they're large objects that are extremely hard to use that have no use. How many people do you know that have a piano in the house? How many people do you know that actually play it? Have you looked up how much it is to move one?

And because you can easily buy a keyboard, a single one, run it through a processor that will make it sound like anything from a Rhodes Piano bass to a Continental organ running through a leslie cabinet, to anything in between. 

It's the same with guitars, nearly all the pros now use a Fractal. You can dial up a '68 100watt Marshall head playing through a Vintage Ampeg cabinet and literally thousands of different distortions, delay, chorus, etc.

I know of one band in particular, and I'm sure there are more, that don't even record their guitars for their records anymore through an amp and cabinet. They simply play the guitar plugged right into the board, and once they get the take they want, just fiddle with all the different settings to get the exact sound they want.  

True to a certain extent on Fractal but im not a huge fan of modeling. Its easy to get 80 percent but 100% doesnt sound right, the Uncanny Valley if you will.

Part of the problem is how they react when played. A good tube amp is very touch sensitive and does some interesting stuff when pushed hard, not because its an efficient piece of technology but the exact opposite. Tubes overdrive when pushed hard and it produces pleasant harmonics. Solid state amps when pushed, clip and it sounds horrible.

Having said that, if it sounds good, it sounds good. Ill play thru anything that will give me a sound i like, wheter its tube,solid state, dead squirrel......whatever, but in general the less its trying to sound like something else, the better it sounds to me. All have their place but if i want a marshall plexi tone......a plexi sounds better than a model as it stands

frenchyd said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Semi fragile?  This one must be the exception, nearly 100 years old and when I hauled it home the snow was several feet deep.  I put the pickup in 4WD and backed as close to the front door as I could. Then I and my son-in-law’s  muscled it out of the bed and onto 2 rows of planks laid on top of the snow. 

Up and into the door way, and just rolled it to the great room. Straps up to the beams and around the piano. Now grab a come-along and bobs your uncle it’s up on the third floor. No real strain, a few beers as a reward and we all had a go at playing it.  

I’ve  been talked out of putting tacks on the pads  but who knows, if I ever get proficient they might go on.  

Moving it makes it need tuning too, which is where the semi fragile thing comes in. The soundboard is under a lot of strain, i mean guitars are around 20 in lbs a string and pianos have....a lot of them lol

frenchyd said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Semi fragile?  This one must be the exception, nearly 100 years old and when I hauled it home the snow was several feet deep.  I put the pickup in 4WD and backed as close to the front door as I could. Then I and my son-in-law’s  muscled it out of the bed and onto 2 rows of planks laid on top of the snow. 

Up and into the door way, and just rolled it to the great room. Straps up to the beams and around the piano. Now grab a come-along and bobs your uncle it’s up on the third floor. No real strain, a few beers as a reward and we all had a go at playing it.  

I’ve  been talked out of putting tacks on the pads  but who knows, if I ever get proficient they might go on.  

It's a heavy piece of furniture amongst other things. Whack it on something and it will show the mark. Damage and patina are not the same thing. Plus, how much of your current tuning problem comes from being banged around? They're not immune to damage. They have hundreds of steel strings under tension inside. They're made of wood on the outside. Sure, it may be 100 years old but how many times has it been moved?

The National Arts Center in Canada has Glenn Gould's favorite Steinway on display. Well, it was his favorite until it got damaged while being moved. For the next decade, attempts were made to repair it and bring it back to its original glory but it was never managed. Now, it's quite possible that Glenn Gould is slightly more sensitive to the nuances than an old racer with tinnutus and other hearing damage, but it's also true that this valuable piano was being transported by pros.

So yeah, semi-fragile. If you want to move one properly, you will take care to do it right. Or you can just smash around.

I studied music in university, and we had at least a hundred pianos in the building that were played 16 hours a day. Every fall, when the heat went on, they'd all go out of tune. Every spring, when the heat went off, they'd all go out of tune. Keeping them in tune was a constant battle.

^It's one of those things I wonder if you could tell the difference if you didn't KNOW they were different. IE blind test.

Kind of like the audiophile tests years ago when the "trained ear" ended up saying a coat hanger sounded better than high end speaker wire. There is so much placebo effect with this stuff.

z31maniac said:

^It's one of those things I wonder if you could tell the difference if you didn't KNOW they were different. IE blind test.

Kind of like the audiophile tests years ago when the "trained ear" ended up saying a coat hanger sounded better than high end speaker wire. There is so much placebo effect with this stuff.

This is different than the placebo effect that you're mentioning. Sure, an untrained ear may not be able to hear the difference between a Kawai and a Yamaha, or even a Steinway, but they can definitely hear the difference in an out of tune and in tune instrument.

In reply to z31maniac :

You might be right, I switched from a standard shock to a set of Koni’s and my lap times were not really different. Later after adjusting them they gained me a little time. But heck the track could have made that difference or I could have driven better.  Etc.  

As to sound?  I can hear loud or soft,  each key sound different and approximately equally higher or lower. I recognize various tunes.  But several people tell me the piano is out of tune.  

In  lap times is it out of tune by minutes, seconds or 10ths of a second?  I have no clue.  

Keith Tanner said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Semi fragile?  This one must be the exception, nearly 100 years old and when I hauled it home the snow was several feet deep.  I put the pickup in 4WD and backed as close to the front door as I could. Then I and my son-in-law’s  muscled it out of the bed and onto 2 rows of planks laid on top of the snow. 

Up and into the door way, and just rolled it to the great room. Straps up to the beams and around the piano. Now grab a come-along and bobs your uncle it’s up on the third floor. No real strain, a few beers as a reward and we all had a go at playing it.  

I’ve  been talked out of putting tacks on the pads  but who knows, if I ever get proficient they might go on.  

It's a heavy piece of furniture amongst other things. Whack it on something and it will show the mark. Damage and patina are not the same thing. Plus, how much of your current tuning problem comes from being banged around? They're not immune to damage. They have hundreds of steel strings under tension inside. They're made of wood on the outside. Sure, it may be 100 years old but how many times has it been moved?

The National Arts Center in Canada has Glenn Gould's favorite Steinway on display. Well, it was his favorite until it got damaged while being moved. For the next decade, attempts were made to repair it and bring it back to its original glory but it was never managed. Now, it's quite possible that Glenn Gould is slightly more sensitive to the nuances than an old racer with tinnutus and other hearing damage, but it's also true that this valuable piano was being transported by pros.

So yeah, semi-fragile. If you want to move one properly, you will take care to do it right. Or you can just smash around.

I studied music in university, and we had at least a hundred pianos in the building that were played 16 hours a day. Every fall, when the heat went on, they'd all go out of tune. Every spring, when the heat went off, they'd all go out of tune. Keeping them in tune was a constant battle.

I don’t know how often it’s been moved. Not much I assume based on how nice it looks. There isn’t a dent or mark on the piano. I did strip the old shellac off and am starting to refinish it. I want to French polish it back to shiny again showing the beautiful figure in the wood. 

As for tune, remember my tin ear, but it sounds just the same as when I picked it out of a stack of over 100 piano’s.  I don’t think my moving it hurt it. But what do I know.  

Everyone: "Moving pianos makes them go out of tune."

Enter stage: Harp player.

mtn said:

z31maniac said:

^It's one of those things I wonder if you could tell the difference if you didn't KNOW they were different. IE blind test.

Kind of like the audiophile tests years ago when the "trained ear" ended up saying a coat hanger sounded better than high end speaker wire. There is so much placebo effect with this stuff.

This is different than the placebo effect that you're mentioning. Sure, an untrained ear may not be able to hear the difference between a Kawai and a Yamaha, or even a Steinway, but they can definitely hear the difference in an out of tune and in tune instrument.

My comment was meant for antihero and us referring to the Fractal. It looks like a few more posts got in before I hit "Post."

I play guitar, not very well, but an out-of-tune instrument is grating.

Truly, I think the whole "exploding piano" thing has been blown out of proportion. *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx8ZXV7wjyw

* The author will neither acknowledge nor deny that the above pun was intentional.

To be fair, that piano in the MB episode DID explode ... after putting a bunch of C4 in it.

BTW, love the conspiracy stuff at the end of the MB YouTube link.  I think the guy is ignoring the weight of the building above and the fact that the entire floor was spewed with fuel (even heating / melting).

Valueless is the wrong word for a piano.  They have great value to a person who wants one.

The fact is, though, you can get a piano for the cost of moving it every day of the week.

I have one in my basement, if you want.  It's a mid 60's Heintzman.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

To be fair Kieth, you’re talking about Formula 1 or Indy Car level of musical ability.  I’m more at the demo derby level. 

You did read where I want to put thumb tacks in the pads to get the Honky Tonk sound, didn’t you?   

I’m going to have to go back to childhood piano lessons to play anything other than Chopsticks.  With my age, bad hearing, and lack of ability if I every can actually detect “out of tune” I’d be very happy.  I just thought it might entice someone to sit down and play a little if it was more in tune.  

z31maniac said:

mtn said:

z31maniac said:

^It's one of those things I wonder if you could tell the difference if you didn't KNOW they were different. IE blind test.

Kind of like the audiophile tests years ago when the "trained ear" ended up saying a coat hanger sounded better than high end speaker wire. There is so much placebo effect with this stuff.

This is different than the placebo effect that you're mentioning. Sure, an untrained ear may not be able to hear the difference between a Kawai and a Yamaha, or even a Steinway, but they can definitely hear the difference in an out of tune and in tune instrument.

My comment was meant for antihero and us referring to the Fractal. It looks like a few more posts got in before I hit "Post."

I play guitar, not very well, but an out-of-tune instrument is grating.

There is a bit of truth there and each player makes their rig sound different. Im odd about my choice of gear, ill play anything but i lean towards ported cabs,which guitarist rarely use, and use Peaveys so old they were handwired by Hartley and no one remembers existed along with other eclectic gear.

barefootskater said:

Everyone: "Moving pianos makes them go out of tune."

Enter stage: Harp player.

I think Harps(which im assuming you mean the stringed instrument and not a harmonica) are more easily tuned than a piano, way less strings for one but i know almost nothing about harps. Without frets id assume they need to be retuned for each key for one.

mtn said:

1988RedT2 said:

mtn said:

frenchyd said:

Antihero said:

Sadly a lot of acoustic pianos and most organs are pretty much worthless now

Why?  There still are people playing/ selling new ones.  I realize there is a whole generation now of kids who grew up with electronics.  But just like there remains a really strong market for records in the digital age, old cars, and other things of a by gone era. 

You’d think vintage pianos would have value.  

Because for the most part, they're large objects that are extremely hard to use that have no use. How many people do you know that have a piano in the house? How many people do you know that actually play it? Have you looked up how much it is to move one?

This is just an example of silly modern thinking.  No electronic keyboard can fully reproduce the sonic nuances of a good piano, much as no digitally-recorded music can duplicate a good performance, or even match the subtlety of an analog recording.

As for moving a piano, that is something that any grassroots individual can accomplish.  You just need friends.  A homebuilt sled or "piano board" and a couple heavy duty dollies make the job do-able.

"extremely hard to use that have no use"?  The same could be said for any musical instrument.  Or machine tool. Certainly both are extremely useful to an individual trained to use them.

In that bygone era, before people spent hours with their faces glued to their phone, many folks had a piano in the house, and it served as a focal point for family fun and interaction.  I would argue that they were better off than we are.

Had a misprint, meant to say "Extremely hard to move that have no use". Which is true, for most people it takes up space and that is it. 

Yeah, it is easy enough to do for folks like us. Most folks aren't like us.

 

Take me for an example. I play guitar. I can play a little bit of piano. I want a piano. I can get one for free, but they all need to be moved, and they all need to be tuned. Expensive/hard to tune. Expensive/hard to move. I ain't moving one. For what I want, a keyboard would be fine. Also, I have right now the fewest guitars I've owned in probably 10 years. I have 5 guitars. Easy to move. Easy to store. Easy to tune. And expensive comparatively speaking because of that convenience. Also, we did have a piano growing up. "Focal point for family fun and interaction?" No, it drove everyone out of the room when my brother practiced. And that was before cell phones, and we didn't really have tv.

The show we are doing right now at the theater is a Gilbert and Sullivan revue.  I have an upright, a good Yamaha electric piano, and a good Korg synth.  They all stayed in the closet and I rented a Kawai baby grand.  Nothing quite matches the sound.

For your needs, a perfect tune isn't necessary.  Get it close and worry about it in another 5 years.  In my case with a professional pianist and a perfectly stable grand, I still tune it once a week in between performances.  It's all relative.  My piano at home hasn't been tuned in 20 years.  I can tell it's out of tune, but I just use it for plunking and song-writing.

Piano tuning is an art.  You can't just find A-440 and then do A-220, 110, 55, 880, and 1760.  The way your ear hears the harmonics, you can't do an equal perfect digital tune.  Do some googles on it and give it a shot.  You have little to lose and a lot of pride to gain :)

1988RedT2 said:

In reply to mtn :

Oh, I'm not saying electronic keyboards don't have their place.  I'm just saying pianos aren't "worthless" or "useless."

When i said worthless i meant they have no monetary value or valueless like Keith said.

I would own a decent acoustic piano just because but my wife wants me to stop at the electric organ til we move to place we will stay for a long time......and shes probably right