Police State USA gets away with murder...again

There's a lot of crazy going on it seems. Why would cops barge into places they suspect full of criminals in plain clothes? That's like asking to get shot at.

Also, why would people who get shot at on a regular basis only get paid $34k? That's like saying "hey, you know all of the dangerous, crazy, armed people that terrorize people? Yeah, it's your job to deal with it. On top of that, the fact that you are going after them essentially puts a target on your chest. Here's your pittance." It also means anybody with half a brain would start thinking he/she could get a job almost anywhere with less training required, and far less chance of getting shanked by a crackhead. It's hard to find a cooler work outfit than cop, though...

In reply to aircooled:

Anybody who claims the North Hollywood shootout as an excuse to give cops more guns, rather than a mere reminder of how most cops can't shoot, is ignorant of how body armor works at the very least. Proper training, and maybe a couple boxes of slugs, was all they needed.

Check out the NYPD's specially modified Glocks if you don't believe me. They actually modified the triggers to be heavier, because the trigger discipline of the officers were so poor, when they switched from revolvers to lighter trigger automatics, accidental discharges went through the roof(no pun intended).

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Proper training, and maybe a couple boxes of slugs, was all they needed.

When was the last time you were in a shootout with two guys carrying assault rifles?

I know how I shoot at the range. I'm not too sure of how I would do in such a situation.

In reply to N Sperlo:

How often do the police actually get in shootouts with one, let alone two guys with fully automatic "assault rifles"? I could be struck by lightning, but I don't carry a 20 foot grounding rod everywhere I go.

If you shoot a guy in the chest wearing typical woven body armor with a 12 gauge loaded with heavy buckshot, or past a certain distance slugs, you will at minimum shatter ribs. Thats the first shot, the second will do far more damage.

Furthermore, more firepower isn't gonna help you if you cant hit anything in the first place, unless by help you mean kill more innocent bystanders. This isn't too far off from the "Why you shouldn't start autoX on R comps" discussion. I read about 650 rounds fired by the police, for 40 hits.

In reply to N Sperlo:

This sounds like a guy who thinks a Viper can be beaten by a stock Miata, at a drag race

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to N Sperlo: How often do the police actually get in shootouts with one, let alone two guys with fully automatic "assault rifles"? I could be struck by lightning, but I don't carry a 20 foot grounding rod everywhere I go. If you shoot a guy in the chest wearing typical woven body armor with a 12 gauge loaded with heavy buckshot, or past a certain distance slugs, you will at minimum shatter ribs. Thats the first shot, the second will do far more damage. Furthermore, more firepower isn't gonna help you if you cant hit anything in the first place, unless by help you mean kill more innocent bystanders. This isn't too far off from the "Why you shouldn't start autoX on R comps" discussion.

How many times would be enough for you, for me once was more than enough

BullE36 M3, Armor has Ceramic plates, they will not let pellets through, nor will ribs be broken, you are thinking of a vest, not the same thing

The failure to hit is a problem only fixed by spending money on training, dont blame the cop, blame the department

N Sperlo wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Proper training, and maybe a couple boxes of slugs, was all they needed.

When was the last time you were in a shootout with two guys carrying assault rifles? I know how I shoot at the range. I'm not too sure of how I would do in such a situation.

I have seen a street sign shot by an experienced and level headed cop, 90 degrees from the direction of the threat, you are very right in saying until you have been there, you DO NOT KNOW how you would react.

Cardboard targets do not shoot back

Kenny_McCormic wrote: ...rather than a mere reminder of how most cops can't shoot...

Seems like decent groupings, except for the a-hole shooting at the tailgate with the big bore (he may want to step down the caliber a bit). Of course... WHO they were shooting at was a bit of an issue.

Of course, they didn't even manage to seriously wound their "targets".

aussiesmg wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to N Sperlo: How often do the police actually get in shootouts with one, let alone two guys with fully automatic "assault rifles"? I could be struck by lightning, but I don't carry a 20 foot grounding rod everywhere I go. If you shoot a guy in the chest wearing typical woven body armor with a 12 gauge loaded with heavy buckshot, or past a certain distance slugs, you will at minimum shatter ribs. Thats the first shot, the second will do far more damage. Furthermore, more firepower isn't gonna help you if you cant hit anything in the first place, unless by help you mean kill more innocent bystanders. This isn't too far off from the "Why you shouldn't start autoX on R comps" discussion.

How many times would be enough for you, for me once was more than enough BullE36 M3, Armor has Ceramic plates, they will not let pellets through, nor will ribs be broken, you are thinking of a vest, not the same thing The failure to hit is a problem only fixed by spending money on training, dont blame the cop, blame the department

Comments like that are why things are the way they are today. Why we live in more of a police state with less rights every day. E36 M3 happens, its not all worth going after.

Wikipedia says level IIIA vest, which can be, at least today, achieved with soft armor.

I'll give you the final bit, it was the departments fault for not requiring better marksmanship and providing the necessary training, and things like this still happen all the time, across the country. Cops doing mag dumps and not hitting anything they were aiming at. One example that springs to mind, for the absurd aftermath, is this case http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/nyregion/unarmed-man-is-charged-with-wounding-bystanders-shot-by-police-near-times-square.html?_r=0

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Check out the NYPD's specially modified Glocks if you don't believe me. They actually modified the triggers to be heavier, because the trigger discipline of the officers were so poor, when they switched from revolvers to lighter trigger automatics, accidental discharges went through the roof(no pun intended).

Ironically, the hugely heavy trigger pull on those NYPD pistols is probably part of the reason they shoot so many innocent bystanders

My friend with 2 President's 100 medals who taught shooting and ran the range at Annapolis, taught the PoPo handguns. He said "When the police are shooting, the safest place to be is in front of the target."

Oh, and exactly how many PoPo were killed in the North Hollywood shootout? And exactly how many bank robbers with bullet proof everything and actual genuine assault rifles (unlike what we peons can buy) got killed? And why would that be a reason to further militarize our "peace" officers?

In reply to Dr. Hess:

The cops were hugely outgunned at that shootout. I think 13 officers were wounded, and that none died is as much luck as anything. There's no reason to deny the police weapons that civilians can own (AR15s and the like), but when they get MRAPs it's a bit silly.

In reply to Will:

Civilians can't (easily) own full auto ARs, submachine guns, etc.

SlickDizzy wrote: In reply to aircooled: Another thing to consider is the shrinking wage of LEO's in most communities. Milwaukee cops, for example, make about $34k a year and have to put up with a LOT of bullE36 M3 to earn that paltry pay (this is a city that has so far this year surpassed Chicago in gun violence rates). If you make policing a job worth having, obviously the quality of candidates will be much higher...sadly the opposite is also true.

The same thing with Journalists, Teachers, Fire Fighters, etc.

For instance, when I graduated college I became a Claim Rep for State Farm instead of going into Journalism? Why? $13k/year pay difference.

My buddy was recently going to quit his job as an awesome Software Engineer to become a professor.......buy why would he at a $35k/year pay cut?

The average teacher in America is paid in the low $40s, avg teacher pay in Switzerland is approaching $120k. It's also been shown that most teachers in America are typically at the bottom end of their graduating class.

American's don't want to pay for quality civil servants, yet they wonder why the end up with the bottom of the barrel.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to Will: Civilians can't (easily) own full auto ARs, submachine guns, etc.

If I'm going to use an FA weapon in a crime, why would I buy it legally? I know how to turn an AK from SA to FA. I know where to find them stolen.

aircooled wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: ...rather than a mere reminder of how most cops can't shoot...

Seems like decent groupings, except for the a-hole shooting at the tailgate with the big bore (he may want to step down the caliber a bit). Of course... WHO they were shooting at was a bit of an issue. Of course, they didn't even manage to seriously wound their "targets".

The thing that bothers me the most about that picture is that they were looking for one person, but there are groups of bullet holes in the general area of where both the driver and passengers head would be. Who else did they think they were shooting at?

N Sperlo wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to Will: Civilians can't (easily) own full auto ARs, submachine guns, etc.

If I'm going to use an FA weapon in a crime, why would I buy it legally? I know how to turn an AK from SA to FA. I know where to find them stolen.

Yup, well aware of it. I was just correcting Will, cops typically have full blown M16s, various select fire Heckler & Koch products, etc. these days, not the neutered versions we can just go out and buy legally.

In response to the OP.. Cops and criminals are the same demographic.. Just like professional wrestlers, you are a good guy or bad guy (Heel or Face for those in the know).. Ether way you are still a Wrestler..

When I was in High school all the kids who wanted to be cops were all the biggest criminals.. You wanted some weed, they were the ones to go to, you wanted some lumber they stole from woodshop.. Go to them. You want liquor or weed at a dance.... Go see them... Want some E36 M3 they stole from a house, store, locked car.... ECT...

In my area, the ones that didn't get busted by the time they graduated, are all now cops..

I guess you could say that is a way of studying your future profession..

In reply to drsmooth:

Wow, overgeneralize much? I hate these ignorant "all cops are criminals" threads. That is flat out bull. MOST cops are honest, hard working people doing a tough job. (Go on a ride along sometime if you don't believe me) Some people aren't cut out for it. Locally at least, pre-hiring screening weeds most of them out. It seems some of the larger cities aren't as successful. That needs to change.

As for the "cops don't need heavy weapons" crap, a good friend of mine was killed responding to a drunken felon shooting up a residential neighborhood with an SKS. I've never had the stomach to read the report to find out if a rifle would have saved him, but don't me tell he didn't have the right to have one.

N Sperlo wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to Will: Civilians can't (easily) own full auto ARs, submachine guns, etc.

If I'm going to use an FA weapon in a crime, why would I buy it legally? I know how to turn an AK from SA to FA. I know where to find them stolen.

I don't and I owned one for years.

kazoospec wrote: ... That is flat out bull. MOST cops are honest, hard working people doing a tough job....

Oh yeah. Well explain this then:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/video?id=9398757&pid=9398284

I'm glad NYPD doesn't have any aggression issues: http://nypost.com/2014/01/19/cops-beat-elderly-man-after-he-jaywalked/

aircooled wrote:

kazoospec wrote: ... That is flat out bull. MOST cops are honest, hard working people doing a tough job....

Oh yeah. Well explain this then: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/video?id=9398757&pid=9398284

Sarcatic response aside, that is really cool! We need MORE cops like that. In Milwaukee, in that same situation (white cop, black kid), that kid probably would have been frisked for "intimidating an officer" or some crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post

According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, the Post was rated the least-credible major news outlet in New York, and the only news outlet to receive more responses calling it "not credible" than credible (44% not credible to 39% credible).[33]

Curmudgeon wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, the Post was rated the least-credible major news outlet in New York, and the only news outlet to receive more responses calling it "not credible" than credible (44% not credible to 39% credible).[33]

Yeah, the Post is one step away from the National Enquirer, but occasionally some legitimacy ekes its way through: I actually know this guy (Danny Z), his two younger brothers are good friends of mine, and the story is true in that he was essentially arrested for approaching police about flagging an intersection (i.e. doing his job as a transportation planner): http://nypost.com/2014/01/08/mta-worker-cops-cuffed-me-for-flagging-dangerous-crossing/