Propane powered heavy trucks

I see a lot of local heavy trucks touting "Clean Burning Propane Power!! Mostly trash trucks, city / county vehicles, etc. Is there a real advantage with this or is it only political correctness? They do smell better.

Yes indeed, emissions are lower, CO2 vastly so. Of course getting the propane isn't so clean, but gasoline isn't farted out by unicorns either...

Was just doing a little checking and my last post is a bit out of date. Modern gasoline cars have caught up with propane-converted vehicles in emissions...impressive:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/propane_emissions.html

These days a propane-burning car gets 10% lower life-cycle emissions than a gas/diesel vehicle. The bigger advantages are in fuel cost now.

Oil contaminants are another advantage. The oil stays a lot cleaner in a propane engine than a gasoline engine.

GameboyRMH wrote: The bigger advantages are in fuel cost now.

I can't see how, propane is berkeleying expensive as balls and the "gas mileage" is E36 M3!

Article from last month says it was 75% cheaper than diesel for running a heavy truck:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-propane-trucks08-20150808-story.html

HiTempguy wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: The bigger advantages are in fuel cost now.

I can't see how, propane is berkeleying expensive as balls and the "gas mileage" is E36 M3!

Here in the PNW they use Methane (collected from landfills) or Compressed Natural Gas. Much cheaper than gasoline or Diesel.

CNG/propane trucks can be cheap... The maintenance is easier than diesel due to less containment.. Oil Change intervals are longer.. Engines last longer...

If you can get CNG cheap or methane as mentioned above, the fuel source is cheap. I'd do a CNG F-150 in an area with high gasoline and cheap CNG costs.

Learn more here: http://www.cumminswestport.com/natural-gas-academy

Not sure about propane, but CNG/LNG trucks will only become more common as emissions regulations tighten and diesel fuel is pushed to the wayside in the name of cleaner burning alternatives.

In reply to STM317:

FIY- this as a pretty old thread. Certainly brought back to life by a canoe salesman.

Rats.

I was hoping this thread would be full of info on p30 stepvans with propane powered tree-fiddys. Because I have one up at MIL's that I can't start and can't find resources on the web to learn about.

In reply to alfadriver:

Looks like I've been caught not paying attention!

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine:

A few years ago I almost bought a CNG Cavalier of all things. It had apparently been owned by the state, lots of PA department of whatever stickers all over it, but it went kinda high on Ebay.

What had me looking though, was the sportsmans club we belonged to had free natural gas from all of the mineral rights sales, and hey, free fuel is free fuel.

Around here, it's not uncommon to find people with free gas, so I'm surprised I don't see more of the vehicles. Unless I'm totally wrong in thinking you could make a filler end to fit on the end of say a stove line, and just fill your vehicle with it.

STM317 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Looks like I've been caught not paying attention!

Wouldn't be the first time that happened, and I'm 100% it won't be the last....

FWIW, while I've not personally tested any propane or CNG vehicles, I do like how easy they are to calibrate.

RevRico wrote: In reply to Fueled by Caffeine: A few years ago I almost bought a CNG Cavalier of all things. It had apparently been owned by the state, lots of PA department of whatever stickers all over it, but it went kinda high on Ebay. What had me looking though, was the sportsmans club we belonged to had free natural gas from all of the mineral rights sales, and hey, free fuel is free fuel. Around here, it's not uncommon to find people with free gas, so I'm surprised I don't see more of the vehicles. Unless I'm totally wrong in thinking you could make a filler end to fit on the end of say a stove line, and just fill your vehicle with it.

Considering what we all eat, it's easy to come up with varying amounts of free gas.

Too bad my office mate isn't too happy about that.

RevRico wrote: Around here, it's not uncommon to find people with free gas, so I'm surprised I don't see more of the vehicles. Unless I'm totally wrong in thinking you could make a filler end to fit on the end of say a stove line, and just fill your vehicle with it.

You will need a compressor, as the tank can't be filled from line pressure. That's the main hurdle.

I was expecting the thread resurrection to have something to do with the propane turbine series-hybrid trucks that are taking off now.

CNG is the way.

No Gas tax, fuel is right next to free.

Just need a booster pump.

In reply to MadScientistMatt:

Depending on the cost and regulations involved, that could be worthwhile. Just have to weigh the cost of purchase and maintenance against annual fuel costs. See how many years to break even or better.

Before you listen to the intarwebs, talk to a fleet maintenance person. CNG and LPG trucks are absolutely DESPISED. Breakdowns, maintenance, lifespan, cost of ownership, initial purchase price... if you listen to them they are the worst thing to ever happen.

I have little personal experience with them, but the word from those who actually turn wrenches on them is abysmal.

Diesel emissions are fast-approaching gasoline cleanliness. They have been equal for passenger cars since 2008. They're also doing it without Urea, EGR, DPF, and some other "tricks" on some diesels.

But as far as CNG and LPG trucks being a win-win, no. They are a publicity stunt.

curtis73 wrote: Diesel emissions are fast-approaching gasoline cleanliness. They have been equal for passenger cars since 2008. They're also doing it without Urea, EGR, DPF, and some other "tricks" on some diesels.

Who is capable of doing that? I've not heard of anyone making SULEV30 numbers without a combination of all the above listed technologies.

curtis73 wrote: Before you listen to the intarwebs, talk to a fleet maintenance person. CNG and LPG trucks are absolutely DESPISED. Breakdowns, maintenance, lifespan, cost of ownership, initial purchase price... if you listen to them they are the worst thing to ever happen. I have little personal experience with them, but the word from those who actually turn wrenches on them is abysmal. Diesel emissions are fast-approaching gasoline cleanliness. They have been equal for passenger cars since 2008. They're also doing it without Urea, EGR, DPF, and some other "tricks" on some diesels. But as far as CNG and LPG trucks being a win-win, no. They are a publicity stunt.

Fleet guys don't like CNG trucks because up until now they've mostly been retrofitted gasoline or diesel engines. Only recently have dedicated CNG engines become more widespread and the tech is still pretty new. They're getting them figured out pretty quickly, and downtime will continue to be reduced as the tech matures.

I'm with Alfadriver regarding your diesel emissions claims. I haven't seen anyone able to meet current diesel emissions standards without the use of EGR, SCR, etc (looking at you VW) let alone the tighter future regulations.

Meanwhile, natural gas engines are already meeting 2023 emissions targets without complex/expensive/problematic DPFs, SCR, or variable turbos. This one has NOx production equivalent to fully electric vehicles that get power from coal plants: http://fleetowner.com/running-green/cummins-westport-near-zero-nox-rating-viewed-game-changer

Here at the state agency of all things environmental we've abandoned all forms of propane, CNG and LNG in our motor vehicle fleet.

In reply to alfadriver:

VW?

etifosi wrote: Rats. I was hoping this thread would be full of info on p30 stepvans with propane powered tree-fiddys. Because I have one up at MIL's that I can't start and can't find resources on the web to learn about.

I'm in the industrial vehicle business (that's code for forklifts) I know a thing or 3 about LPG fuel systems. Do you have any idea what's wrong with it?

The mechanical side of an LPG powered engine is 95 to 100% identical to a gasoline engine. The differences are all on the fuel side. Depending on what brand & style fuel system if has, repairing them is pretty easy. Converting back to gas is usually really easy too.

The thing that fleet mechanics complain about with LPG powered vehicles is usually fuel related problems. LPG has a lot of crap in it that gums up the fuel system. One really bad tank of fuel can take out several major fuel system parts.

In the 2005 to 2010 time period all the new forklifts and other large LPG powered vehicles became EPA/CARB compliant and began using much more sophisticated fuel systems. The parts were very expensive and sometimes delicate. They were intolerant of bad quality fuel that the older systems could usually handle. On top of that, the quality of the LPG itself was pretty suspect. There was a TSB from one of the manufacturers alleging that the refiners were dumping sulfur compounds extracted from other products and dumping it in the LPG because at that time it was not prohibited. Some machines would smell like sulfur no matter what you did to them, and the normally blackish/brownish fuel residue was yellow or reddish.

At one point we couldn't keep enough fuel system parts in stock and whole fleets were down for weeks.

The exact same parts are still in use today, and the problems have mostly gone away, yet the fuel suppliers swear it wasn't the fuel