maddabe
New Reader
12/8/10 11:12 a.m.
Which would be my best option for the bunker? She is fairly substantial @ 26' x 42' x 14'h. I understand that forced air heats... well,...the air, and radiant heats objects. Pros and cons? I am in NW FL so it usually doesn't get crazy cold but the we have had hard freezes the last 3 nights. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Forced hot air is wicked dry and hurts my intake system, YMMV.
The only advantage is air conditioning can be added.
Not real familiar with the various radiant systems, the one I am aware of requires hosing laid down under a concrete floor, ala new build.
Dan
I'm somewhat familiar with radiant systems, and the ones I'm thinking of are best installed at the time of construction, although I have heard of in-floor systems done as part of a re-model under a thin layer of lightweight concrete.
If I was in FL, I would go forced air for money reasons, but your budget may be bigger than mine. Radiant systems are generally considered to be best from a comfort standpoint.
More info? What sort of radiant system are you considering? Gas-fired infrared?
SVreX
SuperDork
12/8/10 11:28 a.m.
Radiant slab- won't work if it is an existing slab. Excellent source for a new slab (especially a shop- floor feels nice and toasty). Still needs a heating source (boiler, water heater, etc.)
Radiant baseboards or radiators- nice heat source, require boiler, etc.
Central Forced air systems- extremely common in the SE. Require a furnace or heat pump. Much easier to install, service, etc. Probably lower install costs and operating costs. HOWEVER, the air is typically delivered at about 85* F, which is less than body heat. It doesn't feel warm. It is also a very dry form of heat.
Forced air radiators- portable units with radiant component (like a liquid or oil filled radiator) plus a circulating fan. Best of both worlds for direct space heating, expensive for room heating.
If the bunker is a shop, you don't need central heat. You need space heat- something to make you feel warm where you are standing. If it is a habitable room, a central system might work better.
SVreX
SuperDork
12/8/10 11:29 a.m.
Again, what is the bunker?
SVreX wrote:
Again, what is the bunker?
If it's not a man-cave garage, could we be implicated if he tells us?
mndsm
Dork
12/8/10 11:34 a.m.
Given that it's florida- I'd assume you've got a rather humid situation on your hands. I'd prefer forced for that reason. Sure it will drive the moisture out a little more, BUT- with the a/c component, it's very important.
Any reason a stove of some sort wouldnt be considered?
We just moved into a house with a pellet stove already installed. I have been running it every night, and it heats up the main living space of the house enough to prevent the heat pump from even kicking on at all until we shut the stove off before bed. Thats with the pellet feed rate set at about half.
I looked up ours and its was currently $1200 for the stove and exterior vent, 40 lb bags of pellets are less than $6. you'll need a standard electric outlet to provide power for the blower and auger motors that feed the pellets.
Provided your bunker is somewhat insulated, and you have the apropriate space...its another option you could consider. If they even sell such things in FL.
I havent tried filling it with ice yet though so I am not so sure it will function as an AC unit.
looks like you can still get substantial tax credit on one too
http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/appliances.html
Florida? Forced air, hands down. Gives you the option of installing a heat pump or A/C for the other 9 months of the year you'll want cool air in das Bunker.
Again, we don't know what kind of bunker this is, but assuming it's a garage I would say radiant floor heat isn't the best choice for Florida. It's great in cold climates where it stays cold, but not as much for places where you only need heat now and then - you can't just turn up the heat and have it warm up right away, it takes time. On the other hand a forced air system can quickly warm up when you need it. Also, as mentioned you can include air conditioning.
There are also radiant wall panel heaters you can buy. I put one in the bathroom when I had to deal with some water damage. You can wire the suckers in line. The radiant panels actually heat up, if you lick your finger and put it on the panel it will sizzle. The problem is these take a long time to heat up and use a lot of electricity. The one I installed was about the smallest one they sold and uses 500w of electricity. If you were to do a shop you are talking multiple 1000w radiant panels wired in series. Maybe get some 230V ones if you can.
SVreX
SuperDork
12/8/10 1:46 p.m.
I agree.
FL= central forced air.
Although it's gonna cost a lot more than most shops warrant. If you do it, might as well do the A/C. Not gonna cost much more, and THAT would be a major selling/ bragging point..."Hey! I've got an air conditioned shop!!"
Overhead radiant is the way to go. I have seen both systems in numerous airplane hangars and radiant is quieter, more effective and more efficient. The hangar that I kept my Cessna 310 in is in Manistee MI. It is 60' x 45' with a 60' wide 14' tall door. On a zero degree day I could have the door open for 5-10 minutes and have it back to 45-50 degrees in10-20 minutes. They also seem to be very reliable.
Braden
SVreX
SuperDork
12/8/10 2:07 p.m.
There aren't any zero degree days in NW FL.
There also aren't any natural gas lines, or oil systems.
You could run one on propane, but why? Lower BTU's, slower recovery time, and all your neighbors are going to wonder why the heck you bothered.
Ian F
Dork
12/8/10 2:57 p.m.
Normally, I would say overhead or radiant floor heating, but for Florida - definitely forced air electric. For the limited use it would get, I wouldn't even bother with gas. Electric will be cheaper to install and cheaper to maintain. No venting issues either.
Basically - buy an A/C system and tell the contractor you want the heat option. Done.
Luke
SuperDork
12/8/10 7:15 p.m.
Given this crowd's propensity for all things Zombie-related, we shouldn't rule out the possibility that the poster has, in fact, built himself some kind of underground fortress.
SVreX
SuperDork
12/8/10 7:27 p.m.
You are absolutely right- that's why I asked what the bunker is.
I am also assuming that since we have heard absolutely nothing from the op, that he has locked the door and left us out here babbling to ourselves and any (ahem..) undead within earshot.
I use radiant electric heat in my shop. The air temps don't bother me as much as picking up cold tools and working with cold machines. I hate working with gloves on unless I absolutely have to. I have one that hangs over my desk, and one that hangs over the lathe and mill. For the amount of time I'm out there the cost isn't enough to worry about. They are wired into a timer that turns them on at 4:30, and a thermostat to keep them off if the temps are over 60. By the time I get home everything is warm enough to be comfortable.
I learned all about this when I moved cold-turkey to a loft in L.A. from my 32' travel trailer of 3 years.
Anywhere drafty and/or poorly insulated your only real choice is radiant. My loft in L.A. was 1800 sq ft of solid brick walls, hardwood floors, and exposed rafter ceilings where I could see the roofing tar between the civil-war-era roofing slats. Radiant heat targeted at the main use areas is cheap to buy, relatively cheap to operate, and reliable. I bought two 1500-watt Marvin radiant heaters and installed one over my computer desk and one over the couch in the living room. Purchase cost was $40 each and they lasted through 6 L.A. winters. I have now moved them with me to TX where they have lived in my "normal" 1-car garage for two winters.
Being from Atlanta, I've never interacted with radiant floor heating. That said, I'd be tempted to install it in a new build. I don't like being cold, but I also don't like hot air blowing at me. When I had the BMW I decided that I loved seat heaters, because I could stay warm yet not have suffocating hot air blown at me. I suspect a radiant heated house would have the same effect.
Kramer
HalfDork
12/9/10 8:09 a.m.
My dad built a well-insulated 3900 sq ft garage. In the smallest bay (28x24), he put a scratch-and-dent forced air furnace that our local HVAC shop found for him. He keeps that part of the shop at about 55 degrees, and the heat from there keeps the other two bays above freezing.
In SW Ohio, he spent less than $300 on propane last year. The tank is buried, which looks nicer.
maddabe
New Reader
12/9/10 9:44 a.m.
Alright, I'm back. The bunker is your basic stick frame garage. I wish it was underground but seeing as how I can see the Gulf of Mexico from my roof I'd most likely be swimming if that were the case. I'm just asking about space heaters. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I would love an actual HVAC system but the damn building itself stretched my budget to the max. I definately do NOT want kerosene because of the smell and the film of E36 M3 that gets on everything. HD supply has a nice radiant propane unit that is rated for up to 4000 sq. ft. I figure what with my high ceilings I'll need that many BTUs.
Also, I'm not a fan of cold tools. I never could work with gloves on.
underfloor is the way to go if you can afford it... if your feet are warm.. you are warm
But I agree.. living in Florida, you are going to want something to take the dampness out of the air. I lived so close to the atlantic, I could see it from my porch, dampness can make even a mildly chilly day pretty miserable
maddabe wrote:
Alright, I'm back. The bunker is your basic stick frame garage. I wish it was underground but seeing as how I can see the Gulf of Mexico from my roof I'd most likely be swimming if that were the case. I'm just asking about space heaters. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I would love an actual HVAC system but the damn building itself stretched my budget to the max. I definately do NOT want kerosene because of the smell and the film of E36 M3 that gets on everything. HD supply has a nice radiant propane unit that is rated for up to 4000 sq. ft. I figure what with my high ceilings I'll need that many BTUs.
Also, I'm not a fan of cold tools. I never could work with gloves on.
For those three months you may need heat, have you thought of partioning off part of the work space, and heat only that area? Cheaper all the way around. At least a tarp over the work area to lower the ceiling for a while might help.